Navigating Polyamory with Emotional Intention with Victor Salmon

The non-monogamous relationship journey is brimming with complexity and profound self-discovery. This episode opens a window into this world, as we chat with Victor Salmon, who walks us through their journey from their initial exposure to polyamory to their experiences within the BDSM community. Victor offers a fresh perspective on managing jealousy and understanding human connections.

We get real about the intricacies of being a hinge partner and what it means to be a 'unicorn' in the Swinger community. Victor shares the importance of setting boundaries versus people-pleasing, and how trauma can impact relationships. We delve into emotional maturity and celebrate the growth that comes with breaking away from monogamous conditioning.

Finally, we discuss how to set boundaries, understand our own attachment styles, and be sensitive to our partner's needs. By the end of our chat with Victor, you'll be equipped with a wealth of knowledge on crafting healthier, more satisfying relationships, whether you're venturing into polyamory or simply looking to understand it better. 

Victor Salmon, is a beacon of inspiration for those searching for a healthier emotional and relational outlook. Victor's initial exposure to non-hierarchical polyamory and subsequent experiences within the BDSM community have shaped their nurturing approach to emotional well-being. Victor excels at translating complex emotions into relatable insights that encourage self-reflection and cultivate healthier relationships. 

📚 Books mentioned:
Nonviolent Communication, by Marshall Rosenberg
Polysecure by Jessica Fern

Connect with Victor
https://intimatevictor.com/resources/podcast/

https://elleciapaine.com/call

Chapters

• 2:50 Entering Non Monogamy as a Unicorn
• 13:08 People Pleasing and Boundary Setting
• 18:45 Navigating Relationship Boundaries and Communication
• 27:36 The Value of Self-Reflection and Learning your Attachment Style
• 37:43 The Importance of Mindfulness

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

Hey, I'm Alicia, your non-monogamous relationship coach. Welcome to the podcast where my friends and I chat about our relationships enthusiastic, non-monogamy polyamory, swinging, kink and our lives. You'll get a candid peek into what makes it worth it to live life outside the box. And in case you're still wondering, nope, we're not monogamous. Hello, hello, hello. I want to give a shout out to Rebecca O for being one of my Patreon lovers. Thank you, rebecca, for supporting the show and I'm loving having you on our group calls for those conversations. If you, dear listener, would like to join in our monthly calls and also hear the behind the scenes from this episode our guest Victor's hottest, best sex tip then go to patreoncom. Slash non-monogamous and become one of our lovers or friends with benefits, and support the show and get a bunch of bonuses.

Speaker 1: 1:21

Today's guest is Victor Salmon, and. They are a beacon for inspiration for those searching for healthier emotional and relational outlook. Their initial exposure to polyamory and subsequent experiences within the BDSM community have shaped their nurturing approach to emotional well-being. An apologetically open and honest Victor excels at translating complex emotions into relatable insights that encourage self-reflection and cultivate healthier relationships. If you're seeking guidance on managing jealousy and anger or navigating human connections in an evolving world. Victor's unique insights, rooted in both personal experience and deep introspection, will prove invaluable to you. I really hope you enjoy the show as much as I enjoyed making it. There we go. I did the thing Wonderful, okay, so welcome you're here and we're talking.

Speaker 1: 2:13

We are. So I want to first welcome you, because I appreciate that you are coming on the show and chatting with me. Well, thank you, You're welcome, Thank you. So it's clearly the show is nope, we're not monogamous, and so I love to talk about people's experiences with relationships that don't fit in the monogamous box. So I'm curious what your experience with nonmonogamy is, what your relationship style is, how you relate to all that.

Speaker 2: 2:50

My experience with nonmonogamy has been varied. I started out as a non-hierarchical polyamorous person Originally as a unicorn actually. I joined a lovely couple and they were the best introduction to polyamory. This is the opposite of many stories you'll hear about nonmonogamy. I knew from a very young age that I was nonmonogamous like I can trace back to two distinct events in my past where I went. That makes so much sense. Why don't people just do that Hilariously? Both of them are Star Trek. I love that One of them one of the best Star Tricks and one of them one of the worst Star Tricks.

Speaker 2: 3:31

So I'll start with good news, which is that the first hint that I might be nonmonogamous was listening to Whoopi Goldberg's character Gynan give Will Wheaton's character, Wesley Crusher, advice about love. If I had to guess, I'd say the name of the episode is the Dauphine. Anyways, tldr. A boy ends up in love with an alien and turns out they can't be together shocker and is heartbroken. At the end of the episode the advice he gets from an adult is you're not going to love again in the same way. Basically, that heartbreak is unique among people and that loving people is unique and that other people are going to tell you that this will just go away, that you'll forget about this person at the end time you'll just love again. That's not true. You're going to resolve these feelings how you resolve them when you love someone else. It's going to feel different. I just thought that was such a really critical moment in my growth because I think I watched that when I was nine or eight or nine.

Speaker 2: 4:33

Oh my God, I love that so much.

Speaker 1: 4:35

I'm a big Star Trek fan, so I really appreciate that Wonderful.

Speaker 2: 4:39

Can you guess what one of the worst Star Trek stars is?

Speaker 1: 4:41

I have no idea. There's so many.

Speaker 2: 4:43

That's fair enough. Fair enough, there are a lot of them, I think. Aside from the original animated series and the original series, I've seen every episode of every Star Trek, except Prodigy as well, actually, because that's really for teens. I tried to get into it, couldn't do it. The one I would say is one of the worst would be Enterprise. Basically, there is a character on Enterprise who is a doctor, a denobulin named Dr Flux, and he has three wives, as most denobulans do. Each of his partners has two other partners. It's so interesting that they try and make it as normy a character as possible. He's very heterosexual and is very into marriage, very, very fixed about a Trigamy, I guess, but is very polyphidelitis. He has that group of his partners and those are his partners and he never explores any kind of relationship outside of that.

Speaker 1: 5:37

Oh, that's amazing.

Speaker 2: 5:40

I remember thinking like why isn't marriage like this for human beings? And then I realized like, oh, for some of us it is.

Speaker 1: 5:46

Yeah, yeah, totally. Oh, my God, I love that.

Speaker 2: 5:50

So those are my two foundational experiences in figuring out I was not monogamous. And then I still hadn't figured it out, hadn't clicked for me. All through high school I tried dating monogamously with pretty much terrible success, because you know high school, I mean who has success in high school and if you do, props to you, but that is not me.

Speaker 1: 6:10

Right, not my experience.

Speaker 2: 6:12

Yeah, not my experience. Myles may vary, but yeah, no, I ended up in a five-year serious monogamous relationship with a proposal and it didn't end up going through to marriage. For me, the proposal was a commitment to work on our issues and I think and again, I can't speak for this individual for this individual, the proposal, I think, was the solution to the issues and that's where we sort of really diverged and from there the relationship kind of spiraled a bit. We're still on like decent terms but we don't really talk anymore, which is understandable. It's been a very long time.

Speaker 2: 6:45

So for me now, I guess that takes us all the way to my early twenties, when I first got into non-monogamy, which would be like 24. I was fresh into the BDSM scene and that's when I got introduced to non-monogamy was through BDSM. So it was through this really intense culture of consent and this, and I just couldn't grasp that partners were totally okay with me dating their partners. It made a lot of sense for me to be okay with people dating my partner, but it didn't make sense for me for other people to be okay with me dating their partner. That's just based on the history, right? You see other people being super possessive and it doesn't feel safe. But then when your partner wants to go out and have other partners, if you're the kind of person that's like, yeah, free, love, go do the thing. It makes a lot of sense to you, yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:36

Oh, how did you wrap your head around that? How did you get to like oh, you got. You're actually okay with this.

Speaker 2: 7:42

That's a really great question and the answer would be that first unicorn experience having that couple that sort of took me in and fostered me as a unicorn because I always think of unicorns as like a fostering system, not a hunting system oh, yeah, yeah, it's like if you really want to sleep with lots of people and bring them into your relationship, you need a cheese wheel. You got to foster your unicorn. You got to feed them. If you don't feed your unicorn, your unicorn's not going to be as comfortable as humanly possible.

Speaker 1: 8:11

Oh, I love that, oh, my God. Like maybe a whole charcuterie board, definitely.

Speaker 2: 8:17

Yes, Whole charcuterie board. But the cheese wheel is key. I'm just kidding. Depends on the person.

Speaker 1: 8:23

Maybe they're non-dairy.

Speaker 2: 8:24

Maybe they're non-dairy, that's right. I think we need some hummus, absolutely, absolutely, and chickpeas will solve all of your sexual problems, is what I'm hearing from this. That's the takeaway Key.

Speaker 1: 8:35

Takeaway Key takeaway. Chickpeas solve problems. They do Right.

Speaker 2: 8:42

I also have ADHD and I recently changed my meds so I made me ender bit. But I think that's probably part for the course for the format I'm here for it.

Speaker 1: 8:48

Wonderful Love it. Thank you so much so.

Speaker 2: 8:53

Yeah, so getting involved with that couple was lovely for me and they both modeled this really. I think of it as super healthy, loving, non-possession. It was very much like you can make appointments to see partners if you want to. You see whoever you want, and also you can make appointments to see us individually. But we would also like an appointment to see you Like appointment sounds so formal Like a date to see you together, maybe like once a month or once every few weeks or something. So we did, we just saw each other, mostly together. I didn't really make very many individual appointments because it was so novel for me to have these incredible three-way experiences and the lady in question I'm still friends with and we still do BDSM scenes, and even the gentleman in question I'm still friends with as well. We just don't see them directly or really have that much of an ongoing relationship today, but at the time it was great.

Speaker 2: 9:53

I learned about all sorts of things that relationship taught me about masculine insecurity and how to support other masculine people, how to just show love and compliments and just finding ways to work in, how your metamore is super important or why you respect or value them, and I think with metamores. It doesn't take a lot to show goodwill and good faith. It can take a lot to receive goodwill and good faith, but those are different things. So you can show goodwill and good faith to a metamore, even in the midst of a threesome, and sometimes that's just a smile Right, like sometimes you're just showing, like acceptance and care. It doesn't need to be like this huge, huge thing.

Speaker 2: 10:43

So for me, that was my introduction. That was my first non-monogamous relationship. Was that one as a unicorn? And then from there I think, I started learning about just how hard being a hinge partner is and helping support people through insecurity. And I ended up with a lot of really difficult struggles, I think, around people being very angry with me, even though they, you know, described themselves as very nominogamous or, you know, polyamorous or even relationship anarchists, Just folks who said they were super open to different arrangements. And then what I found was sometimes those folks and I love them to pieces, there's no shade on them but sometimes those folks maybe hadn't done quite as much work as would have served them in identifying how they were feeling, learning skills to process their feelings outside of the relationship, and the result of that was I developed a lot of I don't want to say trauma, maybe lowercase T trauma, but just like a lot of stress and anxiety around supporting partners through their jealousy and their anger, because anger can be really scary for me.

Speaker 2: 11:59

Yeah yeah, I definitely grew up in a household for most people, but I definitely grew up in a household that had violence in it. So for me it's extra scary and when you get into those sort of extra scary pieces that can really interrupt intimacy and relationship and can make it quite difficult. So what I would say? I suppose I have no idea what I want to say. I've completely lost my train of thought now.

Speaker 1: 12:22

Definitely the HD, that's okay. I'm gonna ask you a question, totally fine. I have a question for you, okay. First of all, dealing with partners who are feeling angry and upset and jealous and having that anger feeling, you know, knowing that you're the person that it's aimed at Did you find that that you found yourself doing a lot of people pleasing and trying to trying to deescalate, and what I find that people do is then they start abandoning themselves and they start bypassing their own boundaries. Anything to make this, to reduce the tension and to not have your partner mad at you.

Speaker 2: 13:08

Yeah, no, I did all that. Yeah, 100% have my number absolutely engaged in people pleasing and that's a pattern to like I tend to find as a trauma response. So, engaged in people pleasing, absolutely didn't enforce my boundaries, just just tried to make things work and really struggled and ended up asking a lot of partners like I really, because I essentially ended up with a lot of this like pain around partner anger and jealousy and I started developing all this anxiety around the same. So if I would go out with another partner, I would like check in with my partner and I'd be tentative and I'd sometimes even be fearful and my partners rightly pointed out like that's your issue, which is a super like unsupportive way to go about it, but also true, like it is my issue to get over, it's my stuff to resolve, it's my work to do.

Speaker 2: 14:03

The flip side of that is, when partners are feeling jealousy, you can say the same thing. You can say like, oh, that's not my issue, that's your work to do, but it's also an incredibly unsupportive way to go about that. So for me personally, it's sort of about finding, well, okay, there's like the minimum of what sort of you know required by me in terms of supporting a partner who's experiencing jealousy. But then there's also just like trying to be a really supportive, loving partner and like what that looks like, and I think where those lines really get screwed up for me is when a partner feels really entitled to my emotional labor and support and time around jealousy.

Speaker 1: 14:39

That's a really good. That's a really good way to kind of define that, because there is there's this like and I think it's a lot of it is monogamous conditioning and, just you know, a need to build emotional maturity is the like I'm feeling bad, you have to do something about it. It's your responsibility versus I'm feeling bad, and here's, here's what I think you could do to help me. Are you willing to do that, right? Yeah, yeah, oh, and it's so much, it's so much freaking learning.

Speaker 2: 15:16

Yeah, it absolutely is.

Speaker 1: 15:19

There's so much to learn and so much to do and figuring it all out. And then like you, like jealousy is such a big emotion, a big amalgamation of emotions, but like it feels huge, especially when it's not super familiar or you aren't familiar or don't have lived experience of moving through it and coming out.

Speaker 2: 15:43

The other side. Okay, yeah, yeah, have you interviewed Dr Julie Hamilton yet Twice? Oh, fantastic.

Speaker 1: 15:51

I adore her side. I talked to her last week.

Speaker 2: 15:53

She's amazing she is. Yeah, I have a few sessions with her on my podcast as well. We touch on the deep wisdom of jealousy, and it's just like I love her content.

Speaker 1: 16:01

She's so good, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got a huge crush on that human. She's definitely yeah, yeah, okay, so I'm cute. The other thing I was curious about is your first experience being a unicorn. Most of the well, it's pretty funny, right. So you've got like the Swinger community where being a unicorn is dope. That's so cool.

Speaker 2: 16:29

This is just the third person who wants to come in, unless you're assigned male at birth, in which case it depends on the Swinger community.

Speaker 1: 16:35

Fair, fair. I don't have that experience. Fair enough. But I can see how that might be a thing.

Speaker 2: 16:44

Yeah. So instead of instead of queerness being encouraged and fetishized almost to the point where, honestly, going to some Swinger communities it almost feels a little like high school, where it's like, oh that that woman is kissing another woman.

Speaker 1: 16:59

Look, two girls are kissing Solely for the purpose.

Speaker 2: 17:01

Well, but solely for the purpose of like turning on their partners Like you sometimes are really into it, and sometimes you see it and you're like, wow, they're really doing that for someone else.

Speaker 1: 17:09

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:10

And like where did that script come from? And like it, just like I can see how much packed luggage there is that is yet to be unpacked and I'm just like, oh, it's exhausting to look at. Like not to be judgmental because that feels judgmental to me, but like sometimes when I just I see people in a place that I've personally been in with just stuff that has yet to be unpacked and I'm just like, oh, this has really taken me out of the mood, you know.

Speaker 1: 17:35

I remember what that felt like. But so so the Swinger community you know people versus the polyamorous community where you mentioned unicorn and everybody is up in arms and this is a horrible thing because you're definitely going to be used and abused by some couple who eventually will hate you.

Speaker 2: 17:58

It's kind of the narrative that we hear. Yeah, and it's. I think it's the narrative we hear, because it's so common. Yes, but by virtue of being a unicorn doesn't mean you're being abused, of course not.

Speaker 1: 18:07

Exactly, Exactly. So I'm fascinated. I love hearing that this is this. This was such a good experience for you and anyways, that was a long, rambly way to ask you if this couple were was very experienced with non-monogamy prior to meeting I think they.

Speaker 2: 18:23

they both had, let me think we were all young. So the the Hingey partner had like five years of experience. The other partner probably had like five to seven somewhere in there.

Speaker 1: 18:41

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:41

Yeah, so like they weren't brand new. And I think that's part of the key. Like, when you hear about these really bad experiences, often you're talking to people opening up from a marriage that have absolutely no experience. They haven't really done the work and there's nothing wrong with that. It's perfectly fine to just live your best life and pursue your dreams. Just, you really have to be upfront and, as we say in the BDSM community, you have to play within your, your abilities. Right, you want to play within your skill set. If you don't have the skill set to have a third or a unicorn or something like that and you're pursuing that, there's nothing wrong with that. But you really need to disclose to those people, like just how unskilled you are and what the risks are, like that's kind of needed for unsformed consent.

Speaker 2: 19:21

Having said that, it is so challenging to I think for a lot of unskilled couples, especially to find a unicorn that's willing at all, that I think there's a huge temptation to simply promise, to do the people pleasing, like you said, to promise whatever the unicorn asks for, even if it's unreasonable. So, if the unicorn's like, well, I want a relationship, not just sex, okay, well, we can make that happen. But it's like but can you do you actually have the skill set to do that and are you practiced? And like, what does it look like when that breaks down? And like have you talked about what an exit from that relationship might feel? Like? Cause, like that's important for everybody, including the people in the marriage, to talk about.

Speaker 1: 20:00

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then there's the kind of the you don't know what, you don't know right, like, like, people don't know, you know they're like well, I have this really great relationship. I'm great at relationships, I'm great at communication, everything is good, but what they have is a really great monogamous relationship that has no experience moving outside of that, and so that's when I think people need guidance and coaching and community and to look for advice. I actually teach a class on group sex and I I have a like a how to have your first threesome class, because it's it's, you know, I think I think most monogamous hetero couples kind of do the let's we talk about this thing. There's this fantasy, it's really hot, awesome, let's do. Hey, let's get your hot friend drunk and see what happens. Yikes, that's, that's so common.

Speaker 2: 20:52

Really.

Speaker 1: 20:53

Oh yeah, oh yeah. I mean I think that that's. I mean, that was my first couple of years Couple of experiences in both ways Got it as a unicorn and not. I was very young, yeah, but I mean it was like the hey, we have this hot fantasy, but we don't actually feel comfortable enough really talking about it. Yikes, yeah and so yeah. So I think it's important that people look for resources and information on what other people are doing right. What has worked for others yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:27

Absolutely. I'm so glad that you have that class available. I've never really thought about doing standard offerings or anything like that. I'm mostly just do completely free resources on my site and then I do like overly inexpensive classes locally and it's just like you can really tell it's a labor of love for me and it's a hobby. Yeah, yeah, I just I don't. I'm looking to spend more on the things that I produce to make them more valuable to other individuals. That's, I think, where I am right now with my consulting.

Speaker 1: 22:02

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I think any good information is valuable.

Speaker 2: 22:08

Yeah, that's fair.

Speaker 1: 22:09

It's all valuable, it's needed, it's so needed. Our whole yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like relational society or like like our culture of relationship is shifting so much right now. People are becoming so like like one. We're just, we're aware that monogamy isn't the only way. I mean yeah, and People are becoming so much more open about talking about their desires and their fantasies and their Even even in monogamous relationships, wanting things that don't look like the script that they started with right right.

Speaker 2: 22:47

People don't even know where to go To look for new scripts. They don't know where to go, like most people haven't read non-violent communication by Marshall Rosenberg, which blows my mind because, as a person who's, you know, neurodivergent ADHD, at the very least, if not I, so the way I would describe it is like a kiss of autism.

Speaker 1: 23:06

Just a little touch, just a little touch.

Speaker 2: 23:08

Yeah, it's just enough to be. But but that's the thing with ADHD there's so much overlap with autism, but the the fundamental cause of it is slightly different, supposedly in attention rather than Then then simply not understanding. But I feel like there's a large dose of that as well. I would say that both share a lot of. It's not important. This isn't a podcast, but neurodivergence.

Speaker 1: 23:34

I could have that conversation all day long, too, because I also have ADHD, and so does my daughter, and so does my mother and, like, yeah, and probably most of the people I'm in relationship with, yeah, neurodivergence locked together, it's just like we understand how the other communicates.

Speaker 2: 23:47

We really were really good with info dumping, which I think is one of the reasons why we end up being podcast hosts.

Speaker 1: 23:53

Yeah, let me tell you about this thing.

Speaker 2: 23:57

For like 20 minutes.

Speaker 1: 23:58

Yeah, exactly uh-huh, but people are looking for resources, right, like they're looking for. How do I, how do I? How do I talk to my partner about these things? How do, how do we? How do we meet people who are into these things that Our friends probably think is weird?

Speaker 2: 24:20

I have a really interesting resource. Actually, when I was doing a lot of my research on transformative justice, I came across this needs-based framework from Australia, new Zealand, and it focuses on on need satisfaction as a form of good. Like people will secure goods and when they get desperate enough they can't get those goods, they resort to less ethical means. It was a really interesting, interesting model of human needs because I'm used to looking at NBC non-violent communication or compassionate communication for the uninitiated that focuses on like these are sort of like the seven, I think, categories of major human needs and then within them there are all of these different kinds of Needs that are like subcategories, and then there are all the synonyms and you kind of have to learn the vocabulary of human needs To be able to really even be self-aware of what they are like. You have to know what they are to know whether you have them or not.

Speaker 2: 25:16

Yeah and so NBC is a really great framework. It's usually one of the first ones I start folks out when I'm coaching and consulting with them. But then also there's this really interesting Good primary goods, secondary goods type framework. That's like I would need to look it up, but I remember coming across it and I really like it in the sense that it it models like I Don't want to say it justifies bad behavior, because that that's my fear. It's usually used to look at like criminal infractions, but if we're looking instead at, you know, couples who are exploitative of thirds or Just not as kind or caring as they, as they could be, mm-hmm, that's also a framework the one could look at.

Speaker 1: 26:01

Yeah, I, I love that. We're gonna find it. I love that because it's one of the things that I talk about. When we're talking about, like jealousy and insecurity in relationships, I often reference Maslow's hierarchy of needs because you know, basically, like, if our base needs aren't being met and we are in fear of losing you know, safety and security and like our basic Financial security or our relational security, then things like jealousy and envy and like being really fearful gets a lot bigger, right, and so so in battling that, you have to like start going okay, how are my needs being met? What are my needs? What? What is what is left here?

Speaker 1: 26:50

That's that's being activated because, like, like, there's all the things right, like you know, like our past relationship experiences and our childhood wounds and our attachment styles. There's all these things you can look at. But some of the first things are Are my needs being met? Like, am I meeting my own needs? Are you, am I scared that you're gonna take things away from me that will leave me in in a bad situation? And then, have I eaten and have I had enough sleep and have I been petted recently and Am I a well-taken care of pet?

Speaker 2: 27:31

Totally, for those of us who are pets, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 27:36

So, okay, I want to ask you this um move, moving from kind of a typical monogamous relationship that we're supposed to do and then moving into non-monogamy. I love that your introduction was through BDSM, because there's so much good stuff happening there, but I'm curious what your biggest challenges were.

Speaker 2: 28:03

Moving into non-monogamy.

Speaker 1: 28:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:05

Yeah, like what we already discussed, people pleasing boundary setting, being able to be appropriately sensitive to my partner's jealousy, rather than overly sensitive or under sensitive. Yeah, so being able to reattune that emotional microphone that I'd had people scream into before and that makes it very hard to put the headphones back on.

Speaker 1: 28:34

Yeah, that's a really good analogy. I like that. Thank you, that a lot, thank you. What would you say has been the biggest growth area for you or impact for you in that?

Speaker 2: 28:53

The biggest growth area or impact. I think there's so many things going on, like, on the one hand, being able to look at my attachment style with Polysecure is an excellent book, mm-hmm, yeah, that was one area for sure Attachment styles, which you already mentioned. Interestingly, I was in a relationship with someone who had an anxious, avoidant attachment style, who described me as secure, and I was like that's the first time anyone's ever described me that way, but I was. I was modeling a lot of security and stability and it felt easy because it didn't feel like I was the one that was needing to change a lot. I think a lot of the focus on change that my partner had was on herself, so that made it a lot easier to seem stable. It's easier to be your best self when you believe in your best self at all. Yeah, and I think it's really hard when all you see are problems to see yourself as a really quote, unquote good Poly person. As the saying goes.

Speaker 1: 30:16

Yeah, yeah, oh, that's really good. That's really good and I've noticed that as well that, like attachment, styles really shift depending on well one, like the amount of work that you put in on healing and shifting things for yourself, but also just the relation, individual relationships and the structure of those relationships, like the energy dynamics in the relationship, can shift that a ton.

Speaker 2: 30:40

And I find that attachment styles also very flexible. At least in my experience. It's like I think that's the thing people are most critical of. Attachment style sort of attachment theory of is that you know you might be anxiously attached to one person and avoid only attached to another, or you might be, you know, very secure with one person and anxiously attached to another.

Speaker 1: 31:02

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:04

And so like figuring out the underlying beliefs that you have about, like you said, where you get your needs met, and like about potential outcomes, how could this hurt me? Like that could really change your how you respond. Like maybe your attachment style is anxious and it's just not very provoked in a lot of relationships and then you meet one person that you really like and it's deeply provoked there and you just find yourself engaging in all of these spiraling super anxious behaviors.

Speaker 1: 31:32

Uh-huh, yep, that is spot on, that totally happens.

Speaker 2: 31:36

It certainly does.

Speaker 1: 31:40

Oh. I love that. I love that.

Speaker 2: 31:42

And I have, fortunately or unfortunately, or through my own fault, been someone who I think has provoked a lot of anxious attachment in partners I've been with, and I think part of the reasoning is I'm not all as their first monogamous relationship, that's certainly. Or non-monogamous relationship, that's certainly not true, but sometimes I am and that can be one of the reasons that you're the partner that sort of provokes an anxious reaction for the first time for someone, or very heightened anxious reaction, yeah. So there's there's there's attachment styles and then there are certainly other areas that I've grown a lot and I would say therapy, just going to therapy, yeah. Yeah, I've had a regular therapist when I was in my late teen, you know, when I was in my, yeah, late teens, early twenties, I was going every week, and then for like from my mid twenties to my mid thirties, I was going like once every two weeks when I was going and I was doing like some years on, some years off, and now I see a therapist about once a month.

Speaker 1: 32:39

Yeah, yeah, and I wish that that this was something that was more one more socially acceptable, especially for those people who present as men. That is like there's so much stigma around therapy there and then and then also just that like we need support and our parents and friends aren't always the best people to be that support.

Speaker 2: 33:08

They don't know anything better. Yeah, you really want to find, like a non-monogamy friendly counselor. They do exist, there are plenty of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, my therapist is a registered clinical counselor in Vancouver. I'll throw in a plug Nikki Belhumer, she's great, very queer friendly, very, you know, non-monogamy friendly for sure, and I would say even pink friendly.

Speaker 1: 33:31

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2: 33:34

Yeah, and like those, humans exist. She even did sliding scale when I started, because I just didn't have the money to pay full rate.

Speaker 1: 33:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:40

Yeah. So, like those humans exist, they're out there. They're hard to find. It may be hard to find in your local area. You may be able to find someone who does distance, yeah yeah. And then there's all this non-monogamous consultants, who, of course, are not therapists such as, I assume, yourself and also myself.

Speaker 1: 33:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the coaching realm is. There's not a lot, but there are several for sure, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2: 34:07

It's not a saturated market.

Speaker 1: 34:08

I'll say that no, no. What would you say is something that anybody can do for free to help them approach relationships in a healthier way.

Speaker 2: 34:23

Great, that's such a good question. Yeah, like looking at needs frameworks, having a vocabulary just to understand, like, what you need, being able when you're in a position of struggle or emotional disturbance, or I don't wanna say fugue, but when you're on the struggle bus and you know you're on the struggle bus, what are you afraid of? Like, what are those beliefs? Doing a little bit more of that self-reflective work and if you are not on the struggle bus, you can still do all that work.

Speaker 2: 34:53

If you've been on said bus before, you can literally just think like okay, when I was having that horrible experience, rather than framing this as like something that was done to me, like what were the things that I was struggling with in that moment, like what were the fears I had, what were the needs that were being met that suddenly were not being met, and just sort of taking a personal emotional inventory, getting like a really good sense of like okay, where was I on the map of human emotions then? And sort of getting good descriptions, how did those emotions feel in my body? Like kind of touching on somatics a little bit, and then sort of bring it all home into like okay, so I know what I was feeling I know what needs weren't being met. How does that relate to like attachment styles and sort of having that conversation as well? And for folks who are just starting, who don't know all of that stuff, there are really good resources to start right. You can always read non-violent communication by Marshall Rosenberg. You can always read PolySecure it's Jessica.

Speaker 1: 35:47

Fern right.

Speaker 2: 35:48

I think it's Jessica Fern who wrote that, and there's tons of other stuff you can read as well, but I would say those two for people who have not read anything yet are a really good starting point for just like improving their human relationships, and I find that both of those books will serve people who end up being monogamous, even if they're just exploring non-monogamy. There's a lot of good quality information that will really help you make monogamous relationships better too.

Speaker 1: 36:11

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I recommend those for anybody in relationships. Period Like that is information we should all have.

Speaker 2: 36:20

Agreed, yeah, and honestly, I feel like non-monogamy isn't necessarily harder than monogamy. I think it's just a different skill set. Some people just have built the skills for non-monogamy and the idea of approaching monogamy is like oh God, that's so difficult, like why would anyone want to do that to themselves? And vice versa. People say the same thing about non-monogamy. Yeah, yeah, and I think right now, because there are so like monogamy is the default, there are a lot of people who would be better served by non-monogamy, who have currently gone through this, like a culturation of monogamy, that are trying to like unlearn the things that don't serve them. And I think that's where folks like you and I come in. Is that, like, we have a lot of that information, we've done a lot of that journey and are still on that journey, right, because it's kind of a lifetime thing.

Speaker 1: 37:03

Yeah, yeah. I mean just being a person in relationship to people. It's the journey.

Speaker 2: 37:11

There's just a lot more people, I think, transiting from monogamy to non-monogamy than vice versa right now, and that's just by virtue of where we are in time and cultural acceptance.

Speaker 1: 37:20

Yeah, maybe in another timeline. They're going the other way, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 2: 37:25

When will they realize it's not a choice?

Speaker 1: 37:32

Is there anything that you would want to share with the listeners that I haven't asked you yet?

Speaker 2: 37:44

Yeah, it's really valuable to practice mindfulness I say this as someone with a degree in molecular genetics like just taking a 60-second time like period to just sit and observe your feelings and your body when you're really struggling will give you enormous amounts of data and insights for troubleshooting and figuring stuff out later, whether it's in therapy or on your own.

Speaker 1: 38:07

Oh yeah, oh, that's so good. It kind of blows my mind. I mean, I've been guilty of this as well. How many of us are like mindfulness? I ain't got time for that. No, I just got to keep overthinking this until it goes away.

Speaker 2: 38:25

Yeah, 60 seconds of mindfulness. I would rather spend the next hour and a half tossing and turning.

Speaker 1: 38:30

Yep, yep, exactly. Instead of like, I'm just going to focus on my breath for a minute.

Speaker 2: 38:35

Yeah, and it's not necessarily going to fix the problem. But if it turns an hour and a half into half an hour, it saved you a lot of time.

Speaker 1: 38:42

That's worth it. Thank you very much. I have one more question for you, ok, and this is for my segment that I hold aside for the patrons of the show at our Patreoncom slash, not monogamous.

Speaker 2: 39:00

Ooh, hello sexy Patreon listeners.

Speaker 1: 39:04

So just the tip what is your favorite or best sex tip? Brilliant, I love it. Thank you, that was like a whole bunch of tips there. That's fantastic.

Speaker 2: 39:25

I'm full of sex tips. I was up talking about it.

Speaker 1: 39:27

I love it. Yes, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun. Yeah, definitely I love it. That was Victor Salmon, and they're just the tip. If you'd like to hear it, go to patreoncom slash not monogamous and become one of my friends with benefits or lovers. Bye.