Managing Jealousy in Open Relationships with Therapist Ann Russo

Navigating the complexities of non-monogamous relationships can be challenging, especially when it comes to dealing with jealousy. In this conversation, I sit down with Ann Russo, a licensed clinical social worker and therapist specializing in non-monogamous relationships, to explore the intricacies of love beyond traditional boundaries.

Ann shares her unique perspective, having grown up in a non-monogamous household, and offers valuable insights into the world of ethical non-monogamy. We discuss the importance of communication, self-awareness, and authenticity in building healthy non-monogamous relationships.

Key Insights You'll Gain:

• Understanding the fluid nature of non-monogamy and how it can evolve over time
• Strategies for addressing jealousy and insecurity in open relationships
• The importance of defining personal boundaries and communicating needs effectively
• How to navigate societal expectations and overcome internalized biases
• The role of self-love and sexual empowerment in non-monogamous relationships

We also touch on the challenges of raising children in non-monogamous households and the importance of fostering open, shame-free conversations about love and relationships.

Whether you're curious about non-monogamy, currently navigating open relationships, or simply interested in expanding your understanding of diverse relationship structures, this episode offers valuable perspectives and practical advice for creating authentic, fulfilling connections.

Ann Russo is a licensed clinical social worker and therapist specializing in non-monogamous relationships. She runs a practice of therapists trained in working with non-monogamous individuals and couples. Ann also provides consulting and training for therapists on non-monogamy, sex-positive approaches, and the intersection of religion and sexuality.

Connect with Ann:
www.annrusso.org
www.linkedin.com/in/annrussolcsw

https://elleciapaine.com/call

Chapters

• 0:00 Navigating Non-Monogamy With Anne Russo
• 10:11 Understanding Non-Monogamy in Relationships
• 20:18 Navigating Jealousy in Non-Monogamy
• 30:58 Exploring Non-Monogamy and Sexual Empowerment
• 45:13 Sex Tips and Relationship Wisdom

Transcript

Ellecia: 0:00

Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non-monogamous relationship coach. Joining me today on Nope, we're Not Monogamous is Anne Russo, a licensed clinical social worker, a therapist and a non-monogamy advocate. Anne's sharing her insights on tackling jealousy, practicing enthusiastic consent and embracing self-love for a more empowered sex life. If you're feeling lost navigating jealousy and non-monogamous relationships, then you're so not alone. The struggle is real, especially when our social expectations clash with your desire for empowerment and healthy connections, but imagine turning those challenges into opportunities for growth. If you're ready to challenge what you thought you knew about relationships and gain some practical advice on navigating non-monogamy, then this is an episode you don't want to miss. Let's jump in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I do want to welcome you to the show to know if we're not monogamous. I'm really happy to have you here.

Ann: 1:02

Me too. Thank you so much for having me on. It is a pleasure.

Ellecia: 1:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally Do me a favor real quick. Tell the listeners just a little blurb about who you are.

Ann: 1:21

No, pressure and the blurb is I'm a licensed clinical social worker, I'm a therapist and I run a practice of therapists that are schooled and working with non-monogamous couples, non-monogamous people, any version of non-monogamy, the umbrella right. And then I myself do consulting to help therapists work with folks that are non-monogamous, because it's just not a thing that therapists are clear on. And I also um, I'm currently getting approved for CEU trainings for therapists to talk about all things non-monogamy, sex, positive religion and sexuality all the stuff that we don't get in school.

Ellecia: 2:11

That is amazing.

Ann: 2:13

Thank you. You know it's, it's. I think it's just needed and, on a personal note, I grew up in a non-monogamous household. You did so that, yeah, that's so cool. Yeah, so it's not. It's not just about, oh, I think these folks need help with just being able to go to therapy and not having to be burnt out just explaining their lives, right. But as much as I've seen it firsthand, what that can look like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ellecia: 2:44

It's super needed. I love that you're um educating other therapists, because I all too often hear from people we were seeing a therapist but they um their suggestion was we just close our relationship?

Ann: 2:59

Yeah, yeah, so true, and you know so many clients that I work with will say going to other therapists has been so exhausting. They might have been really good therapists, but it's so exhausting to have to explain all the dynamics and the understanding and the therapist moving past their bias and their misconception. So it becomes like all this additional work for the client, which is terrible, because you're there to work on the stuff you need to work, work on. You shouldn't have to educate your therapist. So I'm really dedicated to to giving people that space and telling therapists hey, guess what? Just because you say you can work on relationships doesn't mean you understand the intricacies of all types of relationships. You don't know what you don't know, right, so let's get, let me take on the burden of doing the training so folks can go and get their therapy and feel safe doing so.

Ellecia: 4:03

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely, yeah, good, good. And I think there's something, um, you know, I had, um I had, uh, an assistant working on a lot of my stuff for a couple of years and and she's monogamous and but she kept coming back to me and going everything you say is just really good relationship advice and I'm like, yeah, because it's not that different.

Ann: 4:30

Oh my gosh. That is so funny Because, you know, I have run some groups to help people that are starting to explore non-monogamy and at the end of the group they were like this group has been the best in teaching me how to communicate and how to be authentic and how to know my own needs and communicate those needs and what enthusiastic consent looks like. And it was just like they're like this isn't I'm just applying this to all aspects of my life, but I happen to learn it in this class about, you know, a non-monogamy. So I thought like yes, everyone should learn about how to be in a non monogamous relationship so they can be in a healthy relationship. Ironically, like, yes, fascinating how that works.

Ellecia: 5:14

Uh, huh, yeah, yeah, which I think, like, like if, if therapists or just anybody working with relationships started, you know, if you start with a more open, open, uh framework, that then people can close down to what you know. If you start with a more open, open framework, that then people can close down to what you know, like narrow the field to what works for them, but you have all the information. That makes so much more sense.

Ann: 5:36

Yes, absolutely it's. It's it's really. When a client comes in and most of the time I work with people that are beginning to explore non-monogamy not so much people that have been doing it for a while and one of the main things that we really talk about is communication and then communication around understanding their needs. Then we formulate what that non-monogamy means for them yes and then what it means for them yes and then what it means for their relationship dynamic. So it's not. You know, it's interesting how, even when they come in, they have these preconceived ideas. Well, in order for me to be successful in this, this is how I have to do it, and it's like no, that's not how you have to do it. This is about really being authentic to yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ellecia: 6:23

Without really being authentic to yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like what do you really want?

Ann: 6:35

Not what you think is on the menu, exactly so it's it. When they, when they realize that even in the way that I practice, non-monogamy doesn't have to be exactly how, maybe my, if I, if I have a oh my gosh, I forgot the term like a living partner, that you're like, you know, the partner that you live with and you're really like building your life with this person, it doesn't have to look the same way, each other's way of doing non-monogamy. Yeah, yeah, so it's like there's all kinds of like different scenarios, and so that was the main piece of we look at first, you know, trying to show everybody into the same box. Yeah, you can, that would be monogamy as it's presented to us in the U S, right?

Ellecia: 7:22

Well, you know, it's really funny. I always tell people I'm like okay, so let's start with, before you define non-monogamy, let's define monogamy for you. And they almost always have different answers. I love that. That's a really cool approach. Uh-huh, like what is monogamy for you and for you and what you know, like what all is in there. Is there cuddling involved? Is there intimacy of any sort involved? Is there right like, like what is okay, in your monogamous relationship absolutely.

Ann: 7:51

And again back to the communication. I know it's so interesting because people say I feel like I'm being cheated on if someone has an emotional connection with someone else, or someone has a sexual connection, but not the emotional. So it's clearly defining those parameters for yourself and your relationships. So that's the work. Yeah, understanding yourself. That's the real work.

Ellecia: 8:15

Just the lifelong work of understanding yourself.

Ann: 8:18

Yes, yes, yes. The never-ending journey right For all of us. Yeah, and you know even the way that people participate in non-monogamy changes, and I think that that's an important piece too. Like, how do we even begin to describe non-monogamy without the caveat of you change, things change. You have to communicate, you have to be open to the idea of things changing, what's coming up for you. It's so much more than just saying I'm not monogamous. Yeah.

Ellecia: 8:55

Yeah, yeah, and it's like it affects the whole system, right, like oftentimes people think they're going to open their relationship sexually. They're like, you know, we're just, we're opening up, we're having sex with other people and I'm like, but that's not all, you're not just opening a window in your house. Like you have to, like, tear it down and rebuild a whole new house that has way more uh, openings, doors and windows and crawl spaces or whatever. Um, because, like, any change is going to affect the whole thing.

Ann: 9:23

Exactly, exactly. So, I, I, I, exactly. I mean just, I just love what you're saying, because all I think about is communicating, communicating, communicating, communicating. People grow and change, no matter what kind of relationship you're in. This is being insightful to your growth and your change and being able to communicate that to your partner partners, that being able to communicate it back to you. So it's to me, like you were saying earlier, this is just about how to have a healthy relationship.

Ellecia: 10:00

Exactly Ships.

Ann: 10:01

Yeah, yes, yes, Ships Right. So if we can all kind of just get on this page, I think we would have a happier society. Not meaning open relationships, but the. I think it changes.

Ellecia: 10:14

Yeah, If I'm going to be really honest with you.

Ann: 10:34

I think it changes. I think growing up I thought it meant just sexual and then I realized that it can mean the depth of an emotional connection. It can be both of those things. So I gosh, you know, I guess I would say that for me it is when you allow yourself to explore deeper connections, past friendship connections, whether it be physical, spiritual, mental, emotional connections, because I think those things can happen to us. We can choose to cut them off. Yeah, right and say no, I'm monogamous and that's what means.

Ann: 11:26

But if your feelings arise past that space or if you have a sexual desire and you're acting on that sexual desire I think that's where we're moving more into the non-monogamy territory. But again, that's for me, that's not for everybody. Yeah.

Ellecia: 11:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that, I love that. Yeah, I think I agree it does feel like almost anything that doesn't fit into the monogamous box, which is like kind of defined but kind of not Right, but like yeah yeah.

Ellecia: 12:09

It's like. It's like kind of defined I, I, um, I'm always like okay, so if monogamy is just like sex between two people, is it um, like if you're only having sex with one person, is it like forever or at a time or in a day or in a week, like? And then I remember someone was saying to me I was kind of talking about you know, ethical, consensual, non monogamy, polyamory, open relationships, and someone said to me well, it's all polyamory. They were like I fall in love with people all the time, whether it's a, you know, a 15 minute meeting or a one nightamory. They were like I fall in love with people all the time, whether it's a 15-minute meeting or a one-night stand, or they're like I fall in love with all sorts of people. I was like huh interesting.

Ann: 12:53

I hear that too. I mean I totally hear that too. Yeah, you know it's boy. I'm telling you no, no, I mean that's real talk, because I see people, I have connections that run very, very deep. Does that enter into a non-monogamous space? I mean, I don't know. I guess it depends on who you ask, right. And even I think for some folks, and even I think for some folks, the division of sex versus the emotional connection and what does it mean there? And I know it's OK. You know how many times I've heard it's OK if my girlfriend hooks up with another girl, but we're still monogamous. I mean, they're so like, they're so like, right, yeah, so it's huge to say really what is the correct. It's too subjective, yeah.

Ellecia: 13:48

Or we're emotionally monogamous but not sexually, or we're yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We put some guardrails up somewhere.

Ann: 13:56

Yeah, you know. It seems to me that you know, as you're talking about this, at the end of the day, what we're talking about is how people are relating to others, and we're just trying to find words because we're human beings to. We're trying to put ourselves in a box, but at the end of the day, it really is just relating, I mean yeah, yeah.

Ann: 14:22

Yeah, yeah, I don't even know how you begin to. Yeah, like, I mean, I don't even know how you would begin to do this. This situation is okay over here You're still monogamous because you're very emotionally attached to this person and I don't feel threatened, but threatened over here. Is this all of a sudden something that's not okay? And why is that? Like, I think you can see there's so many potential scenarios of what things mean that I think we, just I, I, I feel, I guess, for me, I guess, I'm just going to have to stick to how people are relating to each other.

Ellecia: 14:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It all comes down to like communication and agreements and like who's who's in the relationship and what do they, what do they want out of it?

Ann: 15:06

Exactly, and and if you are someone who's you know very autonomous and you don't have, you know, um, maybe you just have people that you're dating or whatever that might look like, I think that you really then have to know yourself and be able to communicate that to anyone that you're involved with, because I think sometimes what can get lost is people forget they're also impacting other people outside of just themselves, right, or their primary partner, and it's well. No, these are other people too. It's not well. I want to. I want us to go find someone to sleep with. Like that's still a person with feelings, thoughts and ideas and relation relational dynamics as well. So I think, you know, to consider all, all the people involved is very, very important.

Ellecia: 15:56

Yeah, yeah. And like what do they want out of it? What are?

Ann: 15:59

they what are?

Ellecia: 16:00

they adding to the list of things that are possible.

Ann: 16:03

Yeah, exactly, exactly so. There's the people relating to people as authentically as possible, trying to break down these norms that do not fit for a lot of us.

Ellecia: 16:19

Yes, yes, I love it, it's amazing.

Ann: 16:24

I know, I know I'm just just like just using about like that question. I felt like a deer in headlights because I thought that could go a million different ways so many.

Ellecia: 16:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it because I get so many different answers too, and they're like none of them are wrong, like yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah.

Ann: 16:44

I think that's a cool thing for your listeners to think about. Yeah.

Ellecia: 16:49

Yeah, that was. You know, when I started the podcast that was that was my thought was like there's a lot of now these days. There's a lot of resources out there. There's books, there's podcasts, there's YouTube videos. There's a lot of places to go and get like how to's and one-on-ones and everything I have read and that I look at or listen to or watch or whatever. And I'm like, okay, cool, great advice. How did you figure it out? How did you get there? What did you go through? Right, like what puts you up here and me down here? But like not really. But that's kind of my perception, because like you've got this thing figured out and you're giving me advice, but like what happened before? You had that advice to give me. That's what I wanted to know, and so I was like I just want to bullshit with people and find out, like how do we? How did we figure this all out? Because none of us know how to do this from the get go.

Ann: 17:35

Absolutely, absolutely. I think you know, I did have a unique opportunity for sure to understand love in a more freeing way. You know, I was always taught that love is not finite and that was helpful, you know. And it's not that everything worked out beautifully, you know, and it's not that everything worked out beautifully. There was a lot, because I was in a non-monogamous household, but society, of course, is very monogamous. It was confusing to try to rectify that within myself, like what did that mean? What was more authentic to me, you know? So I mean, there's still like a lot of work to be done as an individual, even if you're raised in a non-monogamous, very open household.

Ellecia: 18:27

That is really fascinating, actually. Yes, absolutely, and I get so many questions from parents who are polyamorous or non-monogamous. We're like, what about the kids? Right, and I have three kids that are all teenagers and I've been openly non-monogamous for 10 plus years. So they have grown up with it and have had their questions and I'm like you know, kids don't? They don't come into the world assuming monogamy. It's the thing we teach them, right? Like nobody sits down with your kids and goes okay, it's time for me to tell you mom and dad are monogamous.

Ellecia: 19:04

We only we only sleep with each other and we only love each other, and nobody, like nobody, tells them that, totally Exactly, yeah, yeah. And so I always wonder, like as my kids get older, like what are, what is their going to? What's their, what's their way going to be, how they gonna reconcile all that. So it's really fascinating to hear, like growing up in a non-monogamous house and still going okay, but what's for me?

Ann: 19:32

yes, and the opportunities didn't feel as foreign I guess good way to put that. I, I saw the whole, the whole spectrum. I felt like or a big piece of the spectrum, and I was able to kind of say, okay, what does this mean? Do I like this? I wasn't afraid to explore what could work or not work and the changes over time. So I think that that it was a real, it was a real gift, and I think parents don't do their kids any favors if they try to hide from people or their kids about what's. It's just it's it.

Ann: 20:18

It's more confusing for the kid because then eventually they will find out, yeah, and then there's, like this, almost a shame, or you're almost teaching them this is something to feel bad about or feel shameful about. Yeah, versus, like this is just another way that people can express love and intimacy and relationship, yeah, yeah. So we want we don't want to teach our kids to have shame Nope, nope, nope, so so, but we, but I think teaching them like this is what works for us. It may not work for you, but you get the opportunity to see and find out.

Ellecia: 20:57

Yeah, yeah, you know that's um.

Ellecia: 20:59

I love that because, uh, the thing that has been coming to mind for me a lot lately is especially talking to people who are like newly opening up or who are the people I work with are usually in transition of some sort Right, like, whether they're new to non monogamy or they're transitioning from like swinging to polyamory or, right there, they're shifting to a new relationship paradigm. Sure, and they're like, but what about you know other people, our kids, our family, our friends, and I want to say like, like legal considerations aside, or like at the risk of like losing a job or something Like, if you feel like you're doing something wrong, like you actually feel like it's bad and you shouldn't be doing it, why are you doing it? Yeah, you're like start, pull that apart first, like if this is the thing you want and there's a part of you that's like I don't think it's wrong and I'm scared of judgment. Like right, like, what are what's going on there? Do you feel guilt and shame or are you, you know, scared of like for your survival, kind of things?

Ann: 22:05

shame or are you, you know, scared of, like for your survival, kind of things. That's a really good point, and I think that we're gonna see a lot and have seen a lot of the guilt and shame. Yeah, because that's what's this, you know. I mean, we're fighting a very big machine that we were all born into. So I want to encourage people to confront it and know that it's okay. If you're experiencing that it's like you're coming out, yeah, it's just a different way of coming out right, and you're going to have to make some decisions, of course, like you said, based on safety and things of that nature, but process through it. Those are understandable feelings, but try not to stay there.

Ann: 22:48

That yeah, yeah, you know you want to spend the next 20 years feeling ashamed.

Ellecia: 22:53

That's silly.

Ann: 22:55

I mean that's sad right, and we we know, you know, most of us remember one go around here Like, when your time is up, do you want to have lived someone else's life or do you want to have lived yours?

Ellecia: 23:06

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly, amazing. Um, I, I am curious. I had like 27 questions I wanted to ask you. Oh, yeah, sure, 20, 28 probably actually. Um, um, I am curious about, let me ask you this one Okay, working with non-monogamous folks, what would you say is the biggest like challenge that comes up, or the biggest?

Ann: 23:52

struggle.

Ellecia: 23:53

Yeah, jealousy.

Ann: 23:55

Yeah, jealousy, yeah, that is a hard one and it comes up for almost everybody. So that's not a sign that non-monogamy doesn't work for you. Yeah, and I think that that's an important thing. It might not, or it might, but work through to understand what this jealousy is about. Yeah, so there's work. There's a lot of work attached to how that shows up, why it's showing up. It's usually connected to some level of attachments from the past again, the indoctrination of what it means to be in a relationship, and ownership of people, rather than, you know, people have choices, and so there's there's a lot of components to it, for sure, but jealousy number one, and sometimes it hits people where they least expect it.

Ann: 25:03

I've had clients who are totally fine and going along and no issues of jealousy. And then, oh, you brought your other partner to the house when I wasn't home. Boom, explosion of jealousy, right. So we don't necessarily know how it's going to show up, but the ability to work through it is the key, necessarily know how it's going to show up, but the ability to work through it is the key.

Ellecia: 25:25

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. That was my hardest, Absolutely. I was like a hundred percent, Don't want to be monogamous again. I was. I was married for a long time monogamously, got divorced and was like well, don't want to do that again. Um, and I was like and I'm a pretty jealous person I got I'm going to have to figure that out in the trenches.

Ann: 25:43

How, yeah, how, how did that go?

Ellecia: 25:46

Oh, it was terrible but also great, yeah. Yeah, it's one of those things where you go like uh one, I was aware of it, right. Like I was like I know this is going to be a challenge, so so a big part of it for me was knowing what it like. I know this is going to be a challenge, so so a big part of it for me was knowing what it was that I wanted, like what the ultimate goal was. You know, in the face of my husband being like we could just close this, like we don't have to be non-monogamous. I love you so much, and I was like that's actually not what I want. That's going to leave me really bored and frustrated and back in a place where I don't want to be. So I'm actually just willing to feel this discomfort and move through it, like so knowing what I wanted, I think was key.

Ellecia: 26:34

Because, when I was like in a ball on the floor crying, I was like no, we're not closing, that's not what I want.

Ann: 26:41

Gosh, you sound like some of my clients, but that's real. It's like. No, I want this. I'm freaking out right now. I'm jealous, I'm angry, I'm going through a whole lot of different emotions, but I still know I want this.

Ellecia: 26:53

Yeah, yeah, what a cool place to be, though. Yeah, that's why I always I'm always telling people to get clarity about what you want. Why are you doing this? Like, if you're doing it because I don't know it might be fun and I'm bored, you're probably not going to have the wherewithal to like push through the uncomfortable parts because why it's hard? You could just go back to status quo, where things were just easy and boring. That caused you to want to open up in the first place or whatever. Yeah, absolutely, there's something to be said for comfort, absolutely, and it's all good.

Ann: 27:28

I mean, whatever people do is fine as long as it's consensual, you know, and it's working for them and it's authentic. Yeah, yeah, that's always a line that I'm going with with my clients, you know. So, no matter how jealous they might be or how upset they might be or they can't figure out certain little hitches in what this means, I'll never say to close the relationship. That will never come out of my mouth, because that's not what they're there for. They're there to work through these things so they can maintain their non monogamous relationship.

Ellecia: 27:59

Yeah, yeah, totally Totally. The um, the other thing that that, uh, you know, once I worked through the initial bits of like just jealous, because we're not monogamous, just jealous Cause there's another person and like figured out, like, oh, this is just a lot of my insecurities, uh right, then it was pieces that felt like my identity, like what does it mean for me to be the wife? Well, if some, if another woman is making my husband's lunch, which I don't want to make his fucking lunch, I don't, that was not a thing I wanted. But all of a sudden someone else was making his lunch and I was like, wait, that's my job. No, I don't want that job, but that's, that's what I'm supposed to do. That was hard, oh.

Ellecia: 28:44

And then when my girlfriend started cleaning our house we have a, we have a girlfriend in common for like eight years, plus other partners, but she started cleaning our house. Oh my God, that's amazing. Who doesn't want that? And yet here, here, my nervous system was so activated and like I'm being replaced, I'm useless, I have no point in the why do, why am I even here? And I'm like I don't believe any of that. And yet here I am, freaking out.

Ann: 29:12

Yeah, and really having to work to regulate yourself and understand where those messages were coming from. Cause, yeah, who doesn't want their girlfriend to clean up their house? Right, were coming from. Cause, yeah, who doesn't want their girlfriend to clean up?

Ellecia: 29:24

their house, right? Thank you, honey. Right, this is amazing, and also don't put my shoes there. Yeah, that so. So, like those were like the big pieces, and then you know, and there's like figuring it out, right, the logically like, like, like unwinding, are the programming that we have and like what is what's underneath this, what's really going on, what insecurities are being hit, and then like building up lots of self-love, which for me looked like lots of masturbation hey, you gotta do what you gotta do to get that self-love going I tell people all the time I'm like literally make love to yourself, like Like just self-love, like in the literal way.

Ann: 30:08

Yeah, yeah, and feel safe and comfortable in your own body and in your own pleasure.

Ellecia: 30:14

Yeah, yeah, Because it feels like, when we talk about, like loving yourself, it feels like this ethereal kind of this I don't know mystery thing that you see on Instagram or something. But like what does it actually mean? And I'm like okay, so make it literal.

Ann: 30:28

Yeah, what does it mean? Yes, like. What does it mean for you? Yeah, yeah, or like what? But the body, the body comfort around your own sex and sexuality. I think, is extremely important for all people.

Ellecia: 30:40

Yes, definitely, definitely A hundred percent. A hundred percent, yeah. Yeah, that's what I did for jealousy. What do you have? People do have you had to deal with a jealousy um.

Ann: 30:58

so growing up I did not see jealousy very little so I had. So I was raised in a gay male household with my mom. There's a whole other dynamic. There's a lot going on there, but between my dad and his um primary partner they've been together since I was five and I never really saw them jealous with what the other one was doing. They had a very similar way they operated and then as they got older it changed a little bit, so they actually practiced non-monogamy very differently changed a little bit about.

Ann: 31:43

So they actually practice non-monogamy very differently. Um, there was only one time that I well, you know, I can't even say if it was jealousy, I don't know if that would really be fair. I think maybe there was some boundary issues that needed to be addressed, but they were addressed, yeah yeah. So, yeah, I never, I never, I never saw it myself in my own practice.

Ann: 32:07

Um, when I was younger cause I don't practice non-monogamy now, believe it or not yeah, my partner and I, we talk about these things in great depth, so I don't know what that means for our lives. Sure, and I think that's the other thing too Like it's like things are never on or off the table. It's just like we're just going to keep talking and talking and talking. So how are we here? What's going on with this? But when I, when I was younger, I tried it, but I tried it in a very confusing way of not really understanding myself and not being able to deal with my own attachment issues and things like that. So I don't think it really manifested in the best way, but it taught me a lot about what I would do differently in the future, you know, and and things that worked or didn't work. And, um, the people that you're choosing to engage with also very, very important, because sometimes people will say they're okay with certain things because they like you. Yes, not really recognizing that maybe that's not really going to work for them.

Ellecia: 33:17

Yes, yeah, yeah, that's huge actually.

Ann: 33:22

Yeah.

Ellecia: 33:22

Yeah, like partner compatibility.

Ann: 33:27

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, sometimes and not all the time, but I've seen people try to steal a primary partner because they actually want to be monogamous.

Ellecia: 33:38

But so I mean there's a lot of dynamics at play. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a rough one. Um, I see it and I can, like with my clients, I see it and I can, I can usually kind of see it coming, and yet I want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, right, like like, I want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But man, that person, I really don't think they want to be non-monogamous.

Ann: 34:04

Yes, yes, and when that happens, how do you handle it? When you see it Put you a little bit on the spot, sorry.

Ellecia: 34:16

No, I love that. That's a really good question because, like I, what I wind up going to. So what I always tell people is I'm not working in service of your relationship, I'm working in service of the human beings in front of me and what is best for them individually, right and so. So that's what I do. I go okay for you, like what is this for you? What is, what is it that you want? What is it you desire? What are your boundaries actually? And then, are you upholding them or are you going along to get along? Yes, are you saying yes to things that you don't actually want to say yes to?

Ann: 35:00

100, 100.

Ellecia: 35:01

When you can reign all that in, then the rest just falls out as it's going to 100%.

Ann: 35:09

I couldn't agree with you more. I really, yes, what is it? Are you going along to get along? What do you really want? What does that mean? Because I have seen a lot of cases where it doesn't seem like one partner really wants. If this is when people are opening up, you know a monogamous relationship, one partner may think they have to go along with this and you know there have been situations where people have ended relationships because you know they just really wanted something different and that sometimes is just what it's going to be, as difficult as it might be in the moment. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Ellecia: 35:48

Totally, oh, amazing. Pardon me, oh, you're working on a book. Pardon me, oh, you're working on a book.

Ann: 36:05

Oh, yes, you're working on a book that I am curious about actually I'm very curious about oh well, I'm working on a book about, basically, female cis, female sexuality. Yeah sexuality, and we dive into social context, but I also dive into religious context specifically Christian context.

Ann: 36:30

And I go through the foundations of Christianity, how we got here, and then I talk about different ways that we can empower ourselves to know ourselves more sexually, and I have exercises and examples of client interactions using different types of therapy and some of my own experiences as well, you know, growing up, yeah, that's amazing.

Ellecia: 36:56

When I when I went to school to get my coaching certification, I went to school thinking I was going to be a women's sexual empowerment coach, Like that was my goal. That's what I was doing.

Ann: 37:05

This is great. How did you what? Happened. You're still doing it. You're still doing that too. I have no doubt, yeah.

Ellecia: 37:12

Yeah, so, um, so I was, you know, I had, I had gotten divorced, I had two kids. I was, you know, I'd been married since I was 23 and um had had had very few orgasms and I was like I want more orgasms and I want more sex and you know all of these things. And so I was moving in that direction and, um, so I went to school to be a women's sexual empowerment coach and over the course of that year and a half of school, um, I was also becoming non-monogamous, polyamorous, exploring all of that, and it was like all I was talking about and I was like, oh, actually there's a thing here that like I really like talking about. I love talking about relationships, I love talking about non-monogamy, like polyamory and swinging and kink and like all the things, and where they all overlap, especially, and yeah, so I. So I wound up working with non monogamous folks, but also, like a big part of that is is sexual empowerment, because it's all. It's all intertwined, you know.

Ann: 38:18

Yes, totally, yeah, totally. You know it's I. When I try to describe what is it that I'm doing exactly, sometimes it's hard because there's I feel like it's all an overlap, but I'm trying to, you know, condense it into a sentence somehow. I think it all comes down to some form of sexual empowerment all the way around, and like a self-acceptance and being able to break any barriers that we have that are not healthy surrounding religion. Oh yeah, so I'm like trying to navigate a lot, a lot of those things. So like with the CE trainings. Like one of the trainings that I'm going to do is like how kink can help PTSD.

Ellecia: 39:06

Yes.

Ann: 39:08

Yeah, yeah. So, like things that you know, maybe a therapist isn't going. You know, this is great, this person's doing kink Like they won't even talk. Ask them about their sex lives. A lot of times, therapists are very shy about speaking about sex in general. So that's why I'm this is the agenda that I'm kind of like, hey, let's look at this stuff. We have to be able to talk about these things with our clients, you know. So, yeah, so it's like you stepped into that realm of empowerment and this is just another avenue of empowerment.

Ellecia: 39:39

Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's almost like empowerment, it's. It's funny that we have to say sexual empowerment, because truly true empowerment should not exclude sexuality Totally. Why are we doing these things and excluding a really integral part of humanity?

Ann: 39:57

No, I know that's so true, but that's where I think that, like, religious peace unfortunately comes in. And if you get the opportunity, or like my book when it's done, you will just see the level of the indoctrination from go. I mean, the way the religion was written was anti-woman. Yes, like it is it. It is truly wild. So then we see these repercussions 2 000 years later yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ellecia: 40:29

Generation after generation after storytelling, storytelling, storytelling to like. What is that? What is that game we played as kids, where you whisper in each other's ears and see what the story comes out at the end?

Ellecia: 40:41

I know it's like the whisper train or something I don't remember what it's called, but it feels like that, like the generational things that we're taught is like well, my mom said this, said this, and then I said this other thing, right, oh, kind of like. I also have a women's program for non-monogamous women to feel more confident, and one of the things I talk about in there is how we we we were literally raised by women or or their mothers, who had to legally be financially dependent on men, and like how could we be raised by those women and not have that influence us like we, we do tie our safety and our security in that way, like it just is. Yeah, there's a whole section from the 1950s till now.

Ann: 41:34

What women's roles were, what the idea of? It's more of a cultural look versus the religious. That's a separate piece, but, like what was going on in movies, tv, laws, poetry, books, science, what was being said? Yeah, it's really disgraceful yeah frankly. So I think it's it's so important that we're doing this work.

Ellecia: 42:09

Yep, yep, yep, yep, totally.

Ann: 42:09

Totally, I can talk to you all day long. Yes, I know, I know, totally, I'm right there with you. Yeah, I mean you know. I just really quickly want to tell you this.

Ann: 42:25

When I was with my mom and she's in her her seventies now and we were watching an old TV show called green anchors yeah, yeah, yeah, and in this show it's from the fifties or the sixties. In this show the woman, the wife, wants to, her husband wants her to go to school to learn how to be a better cook. And she goes to high school, okay, and she keeps getting in trouble. And the husband keeps coming to talk to the principal about how his wife keeps getting in trouble. And there's a final incident where she leaves the school because a male student looked at her leg and wasn't paying attention and blew up the science room and she was the one that got in trouble and kicked out of the school for distracting the male. And I'm watching this with my mom now, keep in mind. And I'm like wow, mom, did you see that? No recollection, that that was weird, strange misogynistic. You know what I'm saying? So it's like it is in us to accept this deep misogyny, yeah, yeah.

Ellecia: 43:28

Yeah, you know, like all of us, yeah, totally yeah.

Ann: 43:32

All of us, all of us, all of us, because my mom would never think in a million years that she was blind to misogyny. Yeah, but that to me, was just so. I'm like, really Like she's getting kicked out of school because he blew up the building, cause he looked at her leg Like this is weird, but it just did not register.

Ellecia: 43:53

Yeah.

Ann: 43:54

That that was a completely misogynistic situation.

Ellecia: 43:57

Wild. I know, I know Right.

Ann: 44:00

Yeah, needed an inhaler for that one, I did.

Ellecia: 44:05

Yeah, yeah.

Ann: 44:05

Yeah.

Ellecia: 44:06

Yeah, oh my gosh. Um, is there anything I haven't asked you that you want to share?

Ann: 44:16

No, not particularly. I mean I. I, of course I'd like people to know they can reach out to me and check out my website and subscribe and these classes that I'm doing for therapists, they're also for personal enrichment.

Ellecia: 44:29

Yeah.

Ann: 44:30

So people can take those classes too, and I'm more than happy to talk to people and support people.

Ellecia: 44:35

Where do they find you.

Ann: 44:38

Ann Russoorg.

Ellecia: 44:41

Awesome.

Ann: 44:43

Ornet, I stole both of those. Well, I purchased both of those. Yeah and um, my LinkedIn is a good place to find me as well. Ann Russo, cool, yeah, I think I sent you to throw into the show notes, yeah, yeah, it'll be there.

Ellecia: 45:01

It'll be there for sure. Um, I have one more question for you, and this does not go on the regular on the whole podcast episode. It's for our Patreon supporters at patreoncom. Slash, not monogamous, uh, and it's um. The segment's called just the tip and it's um a favorite or best sex tip that you would want to share. Oh, amazing, amazing. Thank you so so much for coming on the show and talking to me and sharing your wisdom.

Ann: 45:43

Oh, thank you. Thank you so good, I appreciate you sharing yours. I feel like I just had a few moments where I was like, yes, yes, I love this, thank you. So, yeah, thank you. Keep up the great work, thank you.

Ellecia: 45:57

Thank you. That was Ann Russo sharing her jaw dropping sex tip. That's got everyone buzzing. If you didn't hear it, then go to Patreon dot com. Slash, not monogamous, and become one of our amazing show lovers or friends with benefits, and then you'll get access to just the tip as well, and you'll have my undying love. Bye.