Beyond Vanilla The Intersection of Polyamory and Kink with Maeve McBride

Ever wondered what happens when kink and non-monogamy collide with trauma healing? In this episode, I sit down with the incredible Maeve McBride, a kink and ENM educator, erotic coach, and the Executive Director of Kinkfest 2025, to talk about how these worlds intersect—and it’s not just about the fun stuff (though there’s plenty of that too).

Maeve takes us on a journey, from supporting polyamorous families through childbirth to becoming a powerhouse in the kink community. We dig into how kink can actually be a tool for healing trauma and building emotional resilience by providing a structured, consent-driven space for exploration.

Here’s what we get into:

• How kink practices can build trust and create safe spaces for trauma survivors
• The importance of clear communication and consent in both kink and non-monogamous relationships
• Practical tools for managing triggers and building emotional resilience
• The healing power of choosing your own challenges in controlled environments
• How herbal remedies can enhance intimacy and pleasure (yes, herbs have a place in the bedroom!)

And we get into all things Kinkfest, the largest kink convention in the world, and how it creates a judgement-free zone for self-expression and play. Maeve’s ability to mix nurturing mom energy with badass kink educator vibes makes her perspective refreshing and super accessible for those new to the scene.

Meet Maeve McBride:

Maeve is not your average kink educator. She’s a clinical sexological herbalist and trauma-informed coach who blends her deep knowledge of kink, non-monogamy, and plant medicine into her work. Maeve’s personal healing journey from sexual trauma gives her a compassionate, real-world approach to helping others on their path.
www.maevemcbride.com
https://fetlife.com/users/13527208

Whether you’re just dipping your toes into kink, navigating polyamory, or curious about how herbs can spice up your love life, this episode is packed with practical takeaways and new ways to think about consent, communication, and healing. 

Join us for a mind opening chat that pushes the boundaries of what healing, relationships, and self-expression can look like. You'll walk away with fresh tools and a whole new perspective on creating safe, consensual spaces in your life.

https://elleciapaine.com/call

Chapters

• 0:00 Non-Monogamous Relationships and Sexual Empowerment
• 12:03 Navigating Emotional Triggers in Relationships
• 21:54 Healing Through Ethical Non-Monogamy and Kink
• 28:14 Exploring Consent and Kink in Relationships
• 34:32 Exploring Kink and Non-Monogamy
• 48:33 Exploring Kink Fest and Healing Resources
• 1:01:02 Exploring Kink and Rope Suspension

Transcript

Ellecia: 0:00

What's the best thing about BDSM? Beats me! Goddamn, that's dumb. You know what they say about kink it's 90% communication and 10%. Well. That's where things get really interesting. And speaking of communication, today's episode is all about it.

Ellecia: 0:20

Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non-monogamous relationship coach and host of Nope. We're Not Monogamous where I talk to my your non-monogamous relationship coach and host of Nope. We're Not Monogamous where I talk to my friends about non-monogamy sexual empowerment everything in between. There, I'm thrilled to be joined by the amazing Maeve McBride today. She's a kink and E&M educator, erotic coach and the executive director of KinkFest 2025. We're getting into everything from kink and sacred sex to navigating trauma and building your personal toolkit for a pleasure-filled life. And before we get started, if you're loving the podcast, it would mean the world to me if you took a moment to rate and review the show, please. Your feedback helps more people find us and it keeps the conversations going, so hit the five-star rating, let me know what you think and then we're on. It's like waiting for the numbers to to go away. I'm so happy to have you on the show. Nope, we're not monogamous when we talk about things like you know, not being monogamous.

Maeve: 1:28

I have experience in that. That works out.

Ellecia: 1:30

Excellent, excellent. You actually seem to have experience in a whole bunch of things. You wear a lot of different hats. I do hats. Okay, the list I have here is like kink and A&M educator, erotic coach, sexological herbalist yeah, clinical sexological herbalist yeah.

Maeve: 1:58

And event producer yeah, and I'm the executive producer of Kink Fest 2025. I'm really proud of it's the largest kink convention in the world.

Ellecia: 2:05

So it's right here in Portland. Yes, I'm so excited to go.

Maeve: 2:10

It's a celebration. I love it.

Ellecia: 2:11

Yes, Amazing, Amazing, so, um. So that's a whole lot of things I'm curious. Can you share just a little bit about um, how, how have you found your way into this like unique, unique, multifaceted world of things?

Maeve: 2:29

Let's see, I grew up and my dad was an event producer, so that came naturally, and I grew up in a really creative family that always it was like everybody was always doing four or five things to make ends meet. So it's not a stretch for me to do things to keep me off the streets and out of trouble, as my dad would say. But I started off actually working for a naturopath and working in birth and I was a sex positive childbirth educator and in an out of hospital birth setting and so I got to be the one that specialized in supporting all couples. So you know, my first introduction to E&M was supporting a whole polycule and a birth that they were all very excited about and there were like five partners that were all together and I just remember thinking how beautiful it was that this little person who is getting brought into the world had all of this love around them and it really, uh, it hit home for me that like there's infinite love, right, like love just multiplies. Like I have three children, um, and I was like, oh yeah, every time you have another kid. It's not like the love gets less. For each person it is different, it is unique in its own way. But it's not. Nothing gets less like, there's less time and you have to like manage your resources, as we say. But that was my like, my first inkling of like, oh, this could. This would be really amazing. I had fantasies about having partners supporting me in birth like a bunch of partners, and then my class. I was.

Maeve: 4:05

I've been kinky since I was well young, but consensually for 22 years, and so ethical non-monogamy is a huge part of the kink world, especially the community here in Portland where I'm at, and so about nine years ago my husband and I became non-monogamous.

Maeve: 4:27

And I mean, I've been an educator for over 15 years and always teaching, and so a huge piece for me is the trauma-informed aspect, because I am a multiple trauma survivor, specifically sexual trauma, and so over the course of my life, as I've been sexually active and in relationships, I've all.

Maeve: 4:46

I've never actually had the opportunity where I wasn't triggered in a situation, and so I had to do a lot of work on myself, a lot of research, a lot of therapy, so much therapy, and the thing that actually helps me heal or feel better is to help folks with the benefits of my experience and to shorten the learning curve. So I first started teaching in kink because that's what I felt I was more well versed in, and then, after several years in poly, I felt confident enough to start teaching classes of like do as Maeve says, not as Maeve did, right. Like you know, there's so much learning that we can have that has to be done experientially. And then there's a lot of stuff that's like hey, whoa, like there be dragons, avoid that whole part of the map, or you know.

Ellecia: 5:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Maeve: 5:39

That's what led me to this. Um, I went to herbal school, uh, when I, way back when, and I've always loved plants, and what I found is, when I was working in the birth center that I worked in, that you could tell a person that they would live longer by taking this plant potentially right and that we don't diagnose or anything. But if you told them that they would have better sex potentially with it, they were on board right away, and so that was always my focus, even in my clinical training, was to get people to have more ecstatic and more joyous sex, and so we, you know, I learned to type it by symptom, like where do you carry your tension in your body? Is it mental tension? Is it physical tension? Okay, well, we've got plans for that, and so I incorporate that into my practice, specifically my coaching practice to support folks, because we can have the best of intentions mentally and emotionally, and sometimes we just need help with getting our bodies there at the same time.

Ellecia: 6:39

Yeah, yeah, absolutely Absolutely. And then fun side effect of having better sex or improved sex life is then you live longer.

Maeve: 6:47

Great, it's an exercise yeah.

Ellecia: 6:50

Yeah, yeah, it all comes back around.

Maeve: 6:55

It's definitely more vigorous for whoever's on top typically. But you know you can decide if you want low impact or high impact. It's great you can decide if you want low impact or high impact.

Ellecia: 7:04

It's great. What's?

Maeve: 7:07

our target heart range today. Oh my gosh, a Fitbit makes everything an exercise.

Ellecia: 7:10

It's great. Yeah, yeah, look at that, I got hit my steps.

Maeve: 7:19

Keep going. So, yeah, I mean, my theory is you can kinkify anything and, especially when it comes to relationships, you can customize it. I think that's really one of my focuses is no two relationships are alike. It doesn't matter. Like, you can have a type, you can have, you know, but in reality it's just about the folks who are coming together at the time. It doesn't, you know, and it's not one-to-one like. There are throuples, and I've supported a lot, I mean, and more, and it's really cool to in my job to meet all these different forms of relationships and the people that are in them and to like I had studied anthropology in college and so I'm just like continually fascinated fascinated Totally, totally, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ellecia: 8:11

It's funny how, um, it's like one of the challenges I've always had because I tend to be a fairly jealous person is, uh, is um always thinking that, like, if my partners are doing something with someone else that is like a similar thing to what they've done with me, it's like if my partners are doing something with someone else that is like a similar thing to what they've done with me? It's like it took forever to wrap my head around how unique each each relationship was, and like, until I was doing something I'd done with another partner and then going, oh wait, actually it didn't, like it didn't take away from or change what I did with that partner. It's like this whole unique experience with very little overlap, actually, uh, it was. It was like it was so hard to get there, and then, once I did, I was like, oh, it actually is unique.

Maeve: 8:57

It is. It is, you know, I think, for me. The hard thing for me is, uh, I think, especially with folks who have, like complex, complex post-traumatic stress disorder or CPTSD, there are some things that, because of my very specific traumas, that I can't engage in. And so I tell my partners, like, if you want that it, like I have a boundary, like it can't be with me, and then, and having that desire for them to be able to explore, you know, as far and as wide as they want to go, and there's always a little bit of grief for me, like and I've tried to like really tease it out like, is it jealousy? I think that's a component of it, but it's because it feels like my past is what is preventing me from experiencing it in the future.

Maeve: 9:41

And so I actually do a lot of mindfulness based practices around it and I've heard a lot of my clients have similar feelings. When you have a trauma and you can't, if it's something like you were, like I think this is so hot when I watch it, right, like I see it in the clubs or I see it in porn and like watching other people is great. And then when it comes to me, I'm like no, no, no, that my body has some hard limits around it. That's, for me, is the hardest thing to navigate, because people will navigate feeling broken or feeling like there's something wrong with them able to tease out of like okay, well, that's a trigger here, but why do I all of a sudden feel ready to potentially do this with somebody else, if not one partner than the other? And that is where I really love diving into the uniqueness of relationships. They're safe in different ways for different people.

Ellecia: 10:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing. I'm curious. You mentioned some of the like mindfulness in dealing, in dealing with like what, what might be triggering for you or what might be bring up grief for you, um, what, what are some ways that people can, um, like, navigate that kind of space?

Maeve: 10:55

Yeah, I think noticing is the big one. So being able, uh, I have a rule of if I feel this thing, it's called the five second rule. There was actually a study that was recently published where you people become less aggressive, like so, as far as in my communicating it, I have rules for myself, specifically when I'm trying to figure it out, those are there's, that's one set of skills, and when I'm trying to communicate it, that's another set of skills, yeah.

Maeve: 11:21

So it might be. If it's something that one of my partners has brought up and I have a visceral reaction, the first thing is to honor myself and say, okay, something in my body is like I was going to die, like the sensations. If you don't give it a label, at least for me, it's a lot harder to have a dialogue with them, and once I started a dialogue with myself, or different pieces of myself, it made it a lot easier Um conversation. I'm an external processor, so it was like this external process. Internally it's very unique. Um, so, uh. So there's this question that actually my dad used to ask me when I was young if, when I was really upset and I'd get really flooded Right, and I do this with my kids, I do this with my partners. It annoys the fuck out of them, but I'm like. So what's this really about? Like what, what's this response about? And accepting the first answer that comes, as opposed to trying to explain away the real answer that's coming to me.

Ellecia: 12:29

Right yeah.

Maeve: 12:30

What's this really about? Okay, this is like I am jealous because, or I'm feeling this feeling, because I feel threatened because we haven't had a date out in four weeks and you've gone on a. You've just told me you've gone on a date, like in the evening, three days this week with a new partner, right. And so that jealousy piece of like what am I not getting that I want Right? That's, that's part of it.

Maeve: 12:52

When you have CPTSD, it is also about the things that you didn't get from others in the past or the ways in which you didn't feel safe in others. So my second question is where did this start? Like, what's the origin story? And then, typically, my partners are waiting for me to go through this process, so they kind of get left in the lurch a little bit. And that is a dialogue that we have where, like, I might go on radio silence for a little while, even if I'm right in front of you, because I have to tease this out within myself. So where did it first start? Okay, it started here, and I actually got the idea for that process from this old relationship book called Conscious Loving and it's by Gay and Kathleen Hendricks and they're like two marriage and family therapists that married each other, which means they're masochists for sure.

Ellecia: 13:41

Definitely.

Maeve: 13:42

Definitely. But the whole book it's a great book and actually you, you know, when I work with my clients I go and buy that book everywhere. It's a little harder to find, but like, if I go to goodwill and I find three copies for buck 99, I'm like here they are and I give them to anybody that will take them. Because there's two dialogues in that book. There's the intentional dialogue and the frustration dialogue that I use both in my partnerships but within myself, yeah, and so like, as far as like a concrete tool, those were the best I found, especially the frustration dialogue. That's where I got the idea to ask the question where did this start? Where was a time earlier in my life when I didn't feel it, when I felt this and what was going on? And then I can talk to my partner who is like waiting at this point or just being really kind, and say, okay, so are you available? Like that's.

Maeve: 14:36

Another thing for folks who tend to like emotionally process all over is to ask if my partners are available. They know that I have CPTSD, right, but I still don't want to cause harm with them by like just unloading on them. And so I'll say are you available? And that's getting consent, because I just like hearing the word yes, but that's beside the point. I'll say are you available? And then, if they are, I'll say, okay, I'm going to tell you that there's this big thing that's coming up for me in the now. That is a between an A to B, it's between you and me thing, and then there's something that it's triggering, that's old, which has nothing to do with you, but it's giving this feeling a huge fuel load. And then I will start with the trigger.

Ellecia: 15:23

Yeah.

Maeve: 15:24

Like I'll start with what happened to me before them.

Maeve: 15:27

Because, I find that my partners take it a little less personally when I'm like so then this is happening and it feels similarly and like most of the time, like halfway into my explanation of what happened to me before and I try to keep it brief three to five sentences. I set rules for myself. I'm a Virgo Excellent, it helps manage the chaos Like about two or three sentences and most of the time they'll be like oh, I can totally see how this situation is triggering you.

Ellecia: 16:01

Yeah.

Maeve: 16:02

Right, and so you know, a huge part I think about relationships is is it me or is it them? Is it a me or is it a them problem? I take it a lot on and say it's probably a me problem, like first. Right and then I take it as is it an us problem. Second, which you know, early on in my relationships I was really super codependent. I was prone to gaslighting myself, allowing my boundaries to be crossed.

Ellecia: 16:27

And so.

Maeve: 16:28

I think a huge piece of that as far as like tools is like self-soothing is key. Asking myself questions, if I can, brings me out of that like trigger where I want to lash out, which I think is a huge thing when folks have trauma, and then really checking my shit, and when I feel like I've checked my shit, I build my confidence in myself and my skills as a partner. And then when I met with you know by them and even when I'm not, I've already done this whole self soothing mechanism and it just makes everything easier. It took me 15 years to figure it out, but it's so worth it. I mean in shorthand, like if you don't have any skills and you know it takes a while to build these skills, I utilize emotional freedom technique, which is tapping, or in the moment, I'll be like time out and give a time limit I need 10 minutes or I need 15 minutes. Uh, cause that helps with folks who have anxious attachment.

Maeve: 17:22

Yeah Right, you can just ghost and you're like I'm out until I'm out. It can really trigger people. So I'll just be like I'm going to tap and then I do this sequence as I just feel my feelings and I go from here to here, to here, to here, then right here, and then I tap my hands and it's just, it's self-soothing and it's stimming. You know, a lot of people stim in different ways and it's just this really intentional way to do it. So, between tapping, asking myself what's this really about, where did it start and then asking my partners if they're available like that helps me, like the ask and asking them if they're available, that helps me figure out what kind of output I'm going to give. In asking them if they're available, that helps me figure out what kind of output I'm going to give If they're not. I honor their no.

Maeve: 18:12

And then I ask for something else you know, but that huge piece of, I think, for somebody like me who's experienced a lot of my trauma because my no wasn't honored- yeah.

Maeve: 18:22

A huge piece of really healing myself through my relationships has been honoring other people's nose and being like that's right, this happened, but I can do this, I can, and then they in turn, want to do that for me, yeah, so yeah, it's a long winded way of saying it, but there's a lot to do. Um, but it starts with asking yourself a few simple questions.

Ellecia: 18:42

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I always tell people first. First step is like just acknowledging what you're feeling, right, like just be aware of it, instead of going, no, I'm fine, well, well, this is going to last a lot longer than if that's what you're doing, and for me, uh, self-soothing looks a lot like like breath work or movement washing the dishes, going for a walk, and then, if I can't talk it out with the person it, washing the dishes going for a walk and then if I can't talk it out with the person it's writing it down or voice memoing myself, just to get it out of my head.

Maeve: 19:11

Yeah, that's awesome Because I'm like okay if I can't dump on you, I'm going to dump somewhere, right, well. And then there's navigating, that whole thing. If you're feeling something from another relationship and you're with your other part, one of your other partners, and they're like what's up? And I'm like I try to really honor the sanctity of each relationship and not dump on one partner about another, which is so important. Yeah, um, and it's hard sometimes. Yeah, I mean, especially when you feel this intimacy with multiple people, you have, like, if one area is not feeling as safe, and you have like I have three partners right now so if one is feeling disresonant I won't even say not safe, disresonant- that's a good word, the others are feeling more.

Maeve: 19:50

I know right, it's better than judgment. Yeah, it's really also great if somebody is like asking on your date and you're like, yeah, my conditions of my life just aren't resonant right now. It's like, not like. It's not you, it's me.

Ellecia: 20:04

Vibes aren't right.

Maeve: 20:06

Vibes might be a them thing, like resonant is, like it's just not. It's not resonant with my life. Um, anyways, uh, going back to it like it is really normal, I think to feel that like, oh, you know, these other relationships are feeling a little bit more resonant and I want to be able to process with somebody and then like reeling yourself in and being like. So what, in my opinion, like when you're telling one partner shit about the other partner, you're showing that partner that you'll do that about them. And I've noticed like you know I've been messy before Like everybody gets like and watch and watch the responses. You know, like my form of CPTSD causes me to be hypervigilant, to watch body features, how your facial expressions change, all the 90% of communication. That's not the words that you say, and I watch them go, yeah, I want to be there for you. And then you watch as they just kind of go, whoa right.

Maeve: 21:05

Like, and then I wonder you know, do they think? Does she think about me that way? Yeah, and so uh, uh, sex positive and poly affirming uh, counselor, I think is a really great tool If you have the resources to do it, having friends and accountability buddies like I have. You know, I have friends, but my accountability buddies helped me check my shit when I'm being toxic Right, we all have toxic traits and I have three friends where I'm like here, okay, here is all the tea, and they're like you know, you could have been way nicer about that like like, fine, all right, fine, duly noted oh, there's a little of me in there, I see where's five-year-old mave showing up in this situation?

Maeve: 21:54

you know that's my primary protector.

Ellecia: 21:56

She's five and she's kind of a bitch yep, I, I, I love this, especially like, what is this really about? And and where did this start? Um, I, I, actually I, I share stories like that often um on on the show. Because, like I, I vividly remember the first time I did that and my um, two of my partners were in the bedroom.

Ellecia: 22:19

I came home from work. They were excited that I was home, Like we, I, they knew I was coming home. And I walk into the bedroom and I just froze and burst into tears and left the room and they're like what is happening? Everything in me was like they hate me, they don't want me here, They'd be better off without me. I should just leave. I'm not, you know all of these things. And I was like, okay, none of that is true. Like I know that. So what is going on? And it was like I dropped in to like the memory of being 12 years old, my two best friends having a sleepover without me, and all those same feelings. I was like, holy shit, I am a 40 year old woman having the reaction of 12 year old me to this situation. And then I was like, oh, now I can work through it. Yeah, right.

Maeve: 23:04

It's hard, you know, for those that. So I experienced disassociation for a long time. So there was like a whole decade where I couldn't access my feelings or some of my memories. And I think, uh, when, especially when you're in multiple relationships, like there's that whole whatever we didn't get in our core, like our family of origin, right when you get, I think often you know I'm not an expert, but like when you get multiple people and you're trying to tend these multiple relationships, it's very similar to any family dynamic we experience when we're young, right when we're children. It's just they're different relationships, but it has a way of clients who you know they were the older sibling and then when younger sibling came around and younger sibling got all the attention, then they felt abandoned.

Ellecia: 23:56

Yeah.

Maeve: 23:56

And so those clients tend to have a hell of a hard time when a new part, when one of their partners is has a new meta. Yeah right, all of those like it's that fear of abandonment, like, and it's just so core and really it's our brains trying to keep us safe, like it's our limbic system. That's been like recycling how am I going to make the if it happens next, next time, how am I going to do better? How am I going to stay safer? And we don't even realize we're doing it? And so I really love ethical non-monogamy because it forces us to do the work, because if you don't do the work, you're not going to be as satisfied in your relationships. You won't necessarily, you know, not everybody wants long-term relationships, but if you do not, checking your shit makes it a hell of a lot harder to get that amount of emotional intimacy that most people are desiring specifically in polyamory yeah yeah, absolutely, absolutely, super relatable.

Ellecia: 24:50

I feel like being a child of the 80s. You know dad started a new family. Now where do I belong? I feel like everyone I know has that story.

Maeve: 25:07

Well, yeah, I mean, interestingly enough, mine was that my family was the new family, but so my mother, I'm out to my mom, my dad passed away like over 20 years ago, but I was raised in like a pseudo platonic polycule where I basically had two dads but we did not live in the same house. So, like I grew up with an alternative at the time 80s right, Like if you weren't just swinging. It was an alternate, like if you were in committed relationships. It was an alternative relationship stuff, yeah. And so like explaining to my mom that she was like, essentially Polly, just one of her former relationships was platonic, Like I was like, Mom, you're so ahead of your time.

Maeve: 25:55

So that was my experience of the 80s was I had a dad and then I had, you know, he was the stepdad to my siblings, but the three of them all wanted to make sure that the four of us so I have three siblings from my mom's first relationship and then I'm the only product of my parents' union, so to speak we didn't have to feel like we were choosing one or the other. So it was really so my older siblings didn't have to choose, yeah, and then my dad was the one that got my siblings out of bad situations all the time. When they felt like they couldn't talk to their, their bio dad yeah Right, Like when they got caught shoplifting at Nordstrom's my dad went to pick them up and you know like it was there, was this really symbiotic relationship and it was had its own pitfalls and things like that, but it was really great.

Maeve: 26:47

So that's so like that was my first experience with Polly and now my mom's like, oh, wow, she's like in her seventies and she's like, yeah, I was cool, I didn't do drugs in the eighties but I effectively had two husbands.

Ellecia: 27:00

I love that. That is amazing.

Maeve: 27:03

That's so good, but I didn't realize it until I became non-monogamous, of course, right.

Ellecia: 27:12

And then you see.

Maeve: 27:14

Well, and then you, you know, if you do your research which I think is really good to do some research on relationships when you're deciding this lifestyle Some people don't, I hope it works out for them but when you know platonic relationships versus romantic relationships, versus like sexual relationships, that we don't have to have the same relationships from you know person to person and that those can all feed us in really deep ways, I think is really powerful.

Ellecia: 27:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. I love that. I'm curious about how kink can play in the healing process for people with trauma.

Maeve: 28:00

Yeah Well, my elevator pitch for kink or timeshare sales pitch, If I go a little long, just try it on for a week.

Maeve: 28:14

Kink is entirely based on consent. Yeah, right, uh, so, and in in my, the brand of kink that I practice and preach is informed consent. It's very similar to a medical model, right? Have you done your due diligence to make sure that you're informing your partners of things that you have going experience? Your experience level for one is huge, right? Am I new to these things? I think it's a lot easier for people to talk about, like I am new to paddling or spanking, rather than I'm new to relationships. So, like, kink has structure. Right, we have consent models, we have checklists about the things that you should talk to a person about, depending on what type of play you're going to initiate in. I really love that kink when we we call it play, which I think also is great. Like, having sex with somebody is a play session, you know, but also you could just not be sexual If there's.

Maeve: 29:12

There's a lot of uh resources out there for kink, I think, even more sometimes than ethical, non-monogamy, um, because the things that we are doing with each other are they carry a higher risk load physically quite often, and so you have to be able to be ethical about it and say, look, I want to do these things with you. This is my experience level. Do you have questions? And it makes starting conversations a lot easier. So, like I felt like when I became non-monogamous, I had a leg up on a lot of folks who hadn't been in kink because I already had structured conversation checklists for sure. I think the other thing that it really relates to non-monogamy is I get to choose my hard. What's the hard that I consent to? So one of the forms of play that I'm really into is consensual non consent, which, as its base, is consensual. There's a safe word I can stop it at any time, but I can negotiate and negotiations a huge piece. I get to come to my partners and say, okay, here's this really. Maybe it seems messed up thing, you know, to a person who's not experienced in kink. Very quickly, in kink you like what used to be really really taboo. You're like, oh, that could be really hot. Um, what used to be really really taboo, you're like, oh, that could be really hot. But I can say this is an edge for me and I want you to make me cry and I think it's powerful to be able to tell somebody what emotion or physical experience that you want to experience and be really transparent about it. It also helps when they know that you want to do that because when you do they don't feel like a terrible person. You want to do that because when you do they don't feel like a terrible person.

Maeve: 30:54

But a huge piece about kink and non-consent that has actually been one of my biggest teachers in my life is that I'm choosing my heart right. So there are times in my life especially when we talk about trauma healing where what happened to me was not consensual. I said no and it did not stop Right. What happened afterwards was not okay, going back a long ways when I was young. And so when I'm in a scene and I'm feeling those same intense emotions, if I get triggered right or activated I like to say activation because my body and brain are just trying to keep me safe I can say red or I can say safe word and it stops and my partner immediately goes into caring for me. Yeah, right. And so when you've had your consent violated, it doesn't have to be something as extreme as rape or, you know, any of the other sexual traumas that we can experience. It can be trauma with a little t, but you slowly build for me, it builds up my faith in humanity and humans again.

Maeve: 31:54

Right, so that I can say, right, somebody did this to me a long time ago, but it's not happening right now. And what it does, is it kink for me in these negotiated scenarios where it's like, I mean, and non-monogamy, if you're not experienced with kink, it's like a date, right, yeah, like we work on creating this as good of a time in this set time period as we can, right, which I think is also analogous to Polly, because we're not always doing like an elevator or escalator relationship, right, what's the beauty that we can create right now, even if it's extreme and even if it involves pain? And then we have a set way that we process it, that we come down from it. So we basically start off from this baseline of we're on the same plane. Right, you might be doing power exchange, which will change that during your session or your play, and then we're going to have this experience and we've done everything we can to make it great.

Maeve: 32:50

If something happens that's unintentional, oh, I can stop it like that. And then we're going to come back to a baseline and I think, for the brain especially, it's in the body. It's incredibly important in healing to know that even if something's extreme right now, it's not always going to be this extreme and I think that that really there is a it's relatable in all relationships. So it's actually affected the way that I experience all of my relationships and, like you know, last week I was pretty pissed off at one of my partners. Right, I had feelings. They were big feelings, and there was like my internal monologue was like all right, do you want a safe word? Do you want out Like, is this a hard that you don't want to choose anymore?

Maeve: 33:38

You know, and I think E&M does that for us too, because it's a choice. Yeah, any relationship model that you have, any relationship that you're in, is a choice and you get to have those conversations with yourself, and kink just has really great vocabulary for it.

Maeve: 33:52

Like for descriptions, yeah, yeah. So I mean, I have never had non-monogamy without kink. To be honest with you, Although you know the uh, the kinkiest relationship is two really serious kinksters, that then all the things they do are vanilla, which I definitely have one of those going on right now. What's the kinkiest sex you could have in a dungeon?

Ellecia: 34:15

missionary yep with yeah, and be nice to each other wild it's very it's very wild and unusual and you know so I.

Maeve: 34:26

But I just think kink gives us a great framework and there's a lot to be learned and I think there's a lot that you know. Kinksters can learn from non-monogamy, even if they choose not to practice it.

Ellecia: 34:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love, I love the overlap where non-monogamy and kink intersect because of, because of all these things the vocabulary, the containers that are set, the the uh pretty great desire to experience and learn new things and be open to people um, you were saying that it um that being able to say no and have have the scene stop, um builds your, your, uh, faith in humanity.

Maeve: 35:04

But the other thing I imagine it builds is your faith in yourself yeah, in fact, I developed a when I didn't trust myself because there were times. So for those of you that are listening that aren't familiar, in kink we have a safe word. It's typically either red or safe word. In Portlandia episode it was cacao. That's right. But a safe word makes everything stop, yeah, right. And so that's the key, one of the key foundations in our consent based framework, because that's the other thing about non monogamy is it's consensual for all parties, right? There's a lot of cheating in poly if you're not informing your other partners and it's an it's not within your relationship agreement. So that's. I think that's a whole thing as well, and k think we have some relationships, have contracts and agreements, and I think it's a huge. The huge piece is data points. Especially for a traumatized brain, we need more data points that what happened was an outlier instead of the rule.

Maeve: 36:18

And I think it also is different when you have post-traumatic stress disorder, which is typically from a single incident or a few incidents, right. But in CPTSD there are multiple complicating factors, so you might have wanted to get away, but there were other things that made it feel like that was the more unsafe choice and so, uh, I find that with CPTSD my brain needs more data points, which is great, because then I just say that I'm like I need another data point. Can we go again?

Ellecia: 36:45

more, please can you. Can you um for the people listening that may not know um what what? How do you differentiate kink and bdsm?

Maeve: 36:58

ah. So kink is a. Kink is something that you have that is unique to you, right? So we all have different categories. Some people like to be that's impact, right being caning, any implement that's being like whacked against your body is impact, so that's like. And then there's rope. Some people rope is a kink. It's a category BDS, and there's tons of kinks foot fetish kinks, there's cuckolding kinks. There's so many. I actually have a 14 page long glossary of kink terms that I'm happy to share with you. That would be amazing.

Ellecia: 37:32

Yeah, and I'm happy to let you share it with others. I love surprising people with things like yes, people have praise kinks, yes, oh yeah. It's not all choke me.

Maeve: 37:43

No, it's not. In fact, most of my kinks are really gentle because, like, I can take a lot as, so to speak, I, but when somebody is gentle with me, basically it's them showing my body that I make them actually be gentle with me first, because they have to prove to me that they can be gentle before they can go hard. Yeah, so that's so. I think you figure out your standards and you figure out your limits. Kinks are the specific things BDSM is stands for bondage, discipline and sadomasochism. So BDSM is stands for bondage, discipline and sadomasochism. So BDSM is often involves bondage. Right, that's the B, and so that's restraint of some sort. It could be with rope, it could be with something else. Discipline is, you know, impact or receiving. You know, typically BDSM involves a little bit more pain, focused, whereas kinks are across the board, like there's so many, there's thousands. I mean, if you go on FetLife, which is like kinky LinkedIn, look at the fetishes list, there's like hundreds of thousands, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, yeah.

Maeve: 38:40

Yeah, but then BDSM specifically is in the energy dynamic where you have either a top or a bottom, or a dominant or a submissive. So in tops and bottoming there's no power exchange. So deciding who's going to do the things, the top is the person doing the things or instructing a person to do the things, which is also very fun, and the bottom is the person either receiving or taking the instruction. Okay, in dominance and submission the dominant is taking on the load of caring for the submissive. So most people think that dominance, just you know, cause a ton of pain and tell somebody what to do. And there's this selfishness. There's actually a ton of care that goes into it. You know, if you, if somebody, a submissive, is giving you some power that they have right, so they're gifting the dominant with the power to make some choices for them or the power to decide what their consequences for not doing the laundry.

Maeve: 39:42

Because there's a lot of submissives that are like I want to make improvements in my life, but they're more like of a rod versus a dangling a carrot type person. Right, getting a consequence is a more powerful motivator. Then they will literally negotiate with a dominant to be like I want you to check in with me, which is showing care and concern, and if I haven't done my laundry by Thursday, then you get to punish me and then we go into the negotiation of what that is. We can talk about punishment, but it's really a lot more. Role playing specifically goes into BDSM. So we look at restraint, physical consequences, energy exchange and it's all a form of role play in my opinion. You know, if you ask any kinkster, they're going to give you a different answer, but that's what it is for me Absolutely, Absolutely.

Ellecia: 40:33

I asked because I know the the spectrum of what people have awareness of is so wide when I think I've been kinky since I started having sex but I became non monogamous at 35. And we started going to swingers clubs and all of these swingers were would use the word vanilla for people that were monogamous.

Ellecia: 40:55

Rather than people who weren't necessarily having kinky sex and I'm like but all these people are having really vanilla sex, just with multiple people. They aren't having like kinky wild sex, they're like they're just doing a lot of PIV, penis and vagina stuff. Like that's really all that's happening here and they keep calling other people vanilla and I'm like but I know a lot of monogamous people who are very, very kinky. So it was like trying to figure out like the different communities used the same words for many different things. So I always like that, like give a little clarity, yeah well, and a different.

Maeve: 41:33

I think what's really interesting to me, kind of being in both of those communities, so to speak, and I actually I host events at a local club here in Portland that caters to both communities. Yeah, so each community has a way of othering the other community. Yes, right, and so I think there's different cultural pieces to it. Specifically, you know, in kink, like when the kingsters and the swingers are in the same club, there's kind of like this like oh my gosh, the kingsters are like look at all that fluid exchange, I hope they have a checklist. Look at all that fluid exchange, I hope they have a checklist. And all the swingers are like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that that person is beating that other person. Yeah Right, it's so. It's just the important thing is it's well, it's all consensual, like that is where we, that's where we find that common bond is. Is it consensual or not? And if it is, who cares? I mean, I like to say, with consent and lube, most things are possible.

Ellecia: 42:33

You've got enough of it.

Maeve: 42:37

There's a way.

Ellecia: 42:39

Yeah, yeah, I I that's amazing, I love that. Yeah, I always I always like, say, I like where where um, polyamory, swinging and kink where they overlap, that's, that's where I like to play.

Maeve: 42:52

Yeah, I mean, and then, and you know, and then there's different types of swinging right, Like I mean.

Maeve: 42:59

I like to think of everything's on like this scale, right, it's like how many, what's the thing, and how many people do you like to enjoy it with? Because for some people, swinging is like group their definition of swinging is it's group sex, and for others it's like partner swapping, and then for others I mean there's so many different permutations and so I would say we're going to look at the word kink, right? So a fetish is. People often mistake kinks and fetishes like a fetish is something that you need to get off, right. A fetish is. It's deeper than just a. Oh, I see this thing and it gets me hot. Like a kink can be. You can have a lot of kinks, but you don't necessarily need them in order to feel satisfied.

Ellecia: 43:37

Right.

Maeve: 43:38

It goes more towards fetish. We've all got them. I mean, I tend to think everybody is kinky in some way. Right Like there's so many people that would consider themselves like monogamous, would consider themselves like monogamous and, uh, like monogamous, not kinky, but you know, when they are having sex with their wife and she puts her foot in, you know his face, then it drives him way wild and he doesn't know why. Yeah, like kinksters would be like dude, you have a foot fetish. Yeah, like that's a.

Maeve: 44:09

Thing right, and so I think, you, there is benefits to labeling things as your kinks and there's also liabilities. Sure, right, like, because I think one thing that I work with clients a lot and through and through my educational practices, your vocabulary, and do you have a common vocabulary? So I love this. And non monogamy, too, because I'll be like, okay. So my biggest learning curve was kitchen table poly, right, so my definition of kitchen table poly is that in any a given situation, myself, my nesting partner and all of our partners that we have, like you know, each other's metas could sit at a table, yeah, and have a meal, whereas, uh, one of my partners, ktp for them was oh, no, like, and actually it was with their meta. Their meta was like, oh, like, we're gonna be friends, and for me I was like, oh, like, I, I'm not, I'm really kind, I love to meet people, I love to talk to people. I need a little space earlier on. Yeah, right, so I can deal with my stuff, because I'm going to be dealing with my triggers, and so you know, hearing your partner go, oh, but we're KTP and you're like, but that's not what KTP is to me. Yeah, right, or not with that. So I love those conversations. Those are, like you know, great first date conversations If you say it in a nonjudgmental way, like hey, so I saw on your profile that you are, you have, an anchor partner.

Maeve: 45:44

What does that mean to you, like, what does it mean for you? Or I hear that you're you know you have practiced categorical poly or hierarchical poly, like what. What does that mean to you? I think that you're you know you have practiced categorical poly or hierarchical poly, like what. What does that mean to you? I think that is a really great way to dive in and get to know a person and how they view the world and how they view their relationships. The key is coming at it with curiosity and not judgment.

Maeve: 46:07

Right, like I might in my like in a date I might have something that I'm like oh, that is not my definition of what that is, but it doesn't mean that my like, body's inherent, Like I want to keep me safe. Response, Like sometimes my guts have shit for brains. Like I need to be careful not to be like as opposed to like, oh okay. Like I hear that's what it is for you, and then I get to determine if that's right for me. What it is for you, and then I get to determine if that's right for me. But that vulnerability of being able to talk about what things mean to us, I think is is great. It determines if we're going to have a connection sooner or not.

Ellecia: 46:39

Absolutely, absolutely. And getting like clarity on on what, like how are we defining that? I, my mind was blown. A couple of years ago my, um, my girlfriend and her husband were living with me and my husband and I was going on a podcast to talk about kitchen table polyamory and she was like, well, we're not kitchen table. And I was like, what do you mean? You and your husband literally live with us and she's like, but we're not kitchen table, like we aren't all in a relationship together. And I was like, but that's not how that works. We just have different ideas of what it meant. Right, it was so funny. I was like, uh, how do I?

Maeve: 47:18

okay, I actually, you know, in the educator. Uh, maybe it's a little bit sadistic of me. I love intellectual sadism and so, uh, I will actually make people fill out, like I make handouts, and I'm like, okay, let's do a definition you want? This is more like third or fourth date, so I don't scare them off too soon, sure, but I'll be like here's 10 words, write down what they mean for you. And I'm going to do the same words and I'm going to write down what they mean for me, and then we're going to come together and we're going to read each other's results.

Maeve: 47:52

God, this sounds like so much fun I mean yeah, but I also, like I mean it originated in a weird place. Like, to get back at my older sisters, I helped my dad create a questionnaire for anybody that wanted to date them, and it had questions of like you know, like, oh, do you have health insurance? Does it cover emergency room visits? How fast can you run? Like I, like I've always loved, like how you, how you portray information or how you ask the question matters, and I I try to use my powers for good now instead of evil.

Ellecia: 48:24

Right right, I love that so much, that's fantastic. I love that so much, that's fantastic. Um, I'm curious what?

Ellecia: 48:43

I have three questions that just popped into my head. Okay, I'm here for him First of all. Okay, let me ask you, nope, yep, let me ask you about kink fest. I want to ask you about kink fest, um, as as the uh, what are you the executive director? Yeah, as the executive director of kink fest, what, um, what vision do you have for how, how to make that like an environment that's um, like welcoming for people wanting to explore kink?

Maeve: 49:15

oh, um. Well, I love to have a lot of fun with my kink, I love to laugh, and so I love to dispel um this. This pisses off some kinksters, though, so this is just my way not the only way.

Maeve: 49:28

um, so I love to give off mom vibes, like my job is. I feel like I am both the power bottom and the power top to the entire conference, so my goal is to prioritize actually everybody's safety above my own and so helping people to feel safer. I have this theory that, um, if we feel safe, then we can have fun.

Ellecia: 49:49

And if we?

Maeve: 49:49

feel safe and we have fun, then we can learn. And a huge piece about KinkFest. It's a lot of people's first introductions to kink in general. It's this conference it is, you know, it's like drinking from the fire hose, right? So I mean it is the biggest conference in the world. If you come to KinkFest and it's your first time in kink, we actually have a team of people called the kind team that can help you navigate it. They're there to answer questions and the info booth.

Maeve: 50:17

I created this, this program, because, as a femme specifically navigating kink spaces that used to feel primarily dominated by stereotypical like you know, if you think of kink 20 years ago, you think of, like these, what we see in porn, which isn't actually what kink is all about. Right, we, when we think we might go in there, we might have preconception, preconceived notions of, oh, it's about, like all of these big dudes that are just beating women's butts, and the fact is, like I'm queer, um, so I want to, you know, a queer friendly space, like there's a lot of femdoms and themdoms, and so for me it's one. It's like kinky summer camp for a weekend, right, so you're going to come and we're going to have educators from all over the country, some international, and you have the opportunity to introduce yourself to whatever suits your fancy, whatever you're curious about. You have the opportunity to be affirmed by 2400 other people that you're, whatever it is that you like is fine, right, like we all have our likes and our dislikes or things that we don't engage in, but ultimately it's about affirming people with where they're at and what they enjoy, and so we do things like we have a lot of community events. So if you're interested in like pony play, so pony play or livestock play is where people will embody it's not just dress up, it's embody the role of being a pony and they have handlers and people make special tack and we're going to have like a petting zoo for human animals.

Maeve: 51:56

Then there's a whole branch of kink that is Littles play. So Littles play can be sexual or not, and Littles specifically. You'll even hear in the kink world a lot of jokes made about Littles. Right, because there's some level of emotional or intellectual regression that happens as a part of the play and that is actually most of the time it's for healing. Right, because there's some level of emotional or intellectual regression that happens as a part of the play and that is actually most of the time it's for healing right. A lot of not all, but a lot of folks who are littles are they didn't get that nurturing or they didn't get that strong parental or care. We call them a caregiver figure when they were young and so they get to experience that.

Maeve: 52:30

We have a whole like, comprehensive program for both, right, like, and the littles get to go to the petting zoo and pet the pets and it's just, it is the, it's pure. Yeah, like, I think. Whatever you're, whatever people at you know purity culture sucks, but like to be able to be yourself, to dress as you want to dress, to be who you want to be, to embody things and try them on for size, to play with a variety of people, or just voyeur If you just want to watch, and that's the way you want to engage, great. If you want to participate, great. There's something for everyone. And we do this in this environment of non-judgment and I think that is one of the things that folks feel the most is not judged. And the expanse, I mean it is a. It is. We call it a mindfuck. The whole thing is a mindfuck.

Maeve: 53:23

All of Pinkfest is a scene for me. You know I'm just one person, but I'm really the support person for a team of 62 people. Just one person, but I'm really the support person for a team of 62 people. All of us volunteer pretty much that spend the entire year planning these three days so that 2,500 people can come and be themselves and like that is our only goal. We're all. We're all service, tops or bottoms, depending on how you look at it. That's the one answer. Like that environment, you know at it, that's the right answer. Like that environment, you know, come as you are, be who you be and have fun. Like that's my whole mode of operation.

Ellecia: 54:00

I love that there's something so magical and healing about being able to show up as yourself and be accepted.

Maeve: 54:07

Yeah, yeah. And then for me, you know, going back to trauma, this is the only way that I could engage in community is if I was materially participating and making that community feel more inclusive and accessible and safer for people. Yeah, yeah.

Ellecia: 54:25

I love that. I love that. That's so good, so good, so good, so good. Okay, couple of random questions for you. Yeah, what's your favorite kink or A&M book or resource that you like to recommend?

Maeve: 54:45

For kink. It's Playing Well With Others. By Lee Harrington and. Melina Williams-Moss. I give that to every person who's new and exploring kink.

Ellecia: 54:56

Lee Harrington was on my podcast last year.

Maeve: 54:58

I know I have a huge crush on both of them. Whenever I see them speak, I cry Wonderful, yeah, just two beautiful humans. And then for Polly poly, secure, uh is mine of my, is my favorite, um, because it goes into attachment style and attachment style, so attachment theory, really. Um, that was the first book where I didn't feel fucked up. Yeah, or rather I felt fucked up, but for reasons like it's legit, it's fine um, uh.

Maeve: 55:34

And then there's a couple other books that wouldn't necessarily be kink or poly specific, but I really love them for both of my kink and my poly clients. Can I share those?

Maeve: 55:42

yeah, absolutely okay, so I already did. But conscious loving yes, it's one of my favorites. And then unfuck your boundaries and unfuck your relationships. Yes, um, yeah, uh, those are, and I got both of those at an independent sex toy shop here in Portland. Um, but unfuck your boundaries was key, because when people are, when I was experiencing a lot of hardship in my relationships, it felt like, in general, like you get in those spaces where everything just feels funky. Uh, it came back to my boundaries. I was letting my, I was not, I was not communicating my boundaries, I was not asserting them and I certainly wasn't giving consequences when they were transgressed upon. And so Unfuck your Boundaries. Really, it helped me tighten up my consent practices and as far as what I was consenting to, and that was key.

Ellecia: 56:32

I love that. So good, yeah, those are great books. Okay, what is one herbal, like a herbal remedy or plant medicine that everyone should have in their bedroom?

Maeve: 56:44

In the bedroom. It actually there is no one panacea for everyone, so the really it's, I would say it's based on what you experienced, so I have like three primary ones.

Ellecia: 56:57

Okay.

Maeve: 56:57

Okay. So if you are a person where you experience a lot of mental clutter and physical clutter, like where you just feel like wiry or you feel like you can't ramp down, um, then I would say Damiana. Damiana is a Mesoamerican herb. It has all of these great characteristics it's herbal, it's floral, but it has this ability to harmonize. For me, like my mind and my heart and my root like, and my sex, and so when I'm just being like, just kind of on edge, damiana is that For a person who has symptoms where they have a lot of tension in their body and their body tension prevents them from easing in or even like receiving touch. Cramp bark is my favorite because cramp bark is a natural muscle relaxer and it's also really great for menstrual cramps. Oh nice, but it works if you're ingesting it. So remember, this is chemical play, as we call and think.

Ellecia: 57:54

Sure.

Maeve: 57:54

There's no safe word. So if you're like check out the contraindications, consult with your healthcare professional. I am not a medical provider and there's some herbs have contraindications and serious ones, especially if you're gestating. But cramp bark is great. It's especially good for period sex if you have cramps that inhibit your desire to have sex. But you want to have sex anyways.

Maeve: 58:16

And then I would say that the third one is a cross between well, chocolate is a given right, so chocolate can be very helpful, but I keep that in my pantry because of ants. So let's see what's over in my cabinet. Oh, I love blue lotus, which is not one you find quite often.

Ellecia: 58:37

Okay, so blue lotus.

Maeve: 58:40

Uh, you have to check your local laws because some States do not like it. Um, but blue lotus is a gentle hypnotic. If you aren't allowed blue lotus in your local jurisdiction, um, I would say, like passion flower.

Maeve: 58:57

Passion flower tastes terrible, which lets you know it's working nice that's the thing about tinctures, and I do tinctures primarily, especially in the bedroom, because it's like, oh, I just like. There's those times where I'm like laying down, I'm like, oh, I just want to have sex, but I'm so like I'm just not in a place, and then my partner will be like, don't you have things in your cabinet? I'm like, oh, yes, that's right by my head.

Ellecia: 59:22

Yeah.

Maeve: 59:23

And tinctures are fast acting. You hold them under the tongue. Yeah, If you don't drink alcohol. There are glycerite tinctures which don't have any alcohol in them, so they're pretty much everybody can take, you know everybody. There's a way to ingest a tincture if you've got a will.

Ellecia: 59:37

Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. I love that you said Damiana. I do a cacao drink with Damiana that I just love.

Maeve: 59:45

A lot of folks like rose too.

Ellecia: 59:49

Damiana and rose together are magical. Yep, yep, oh, I love that so good um. Is there anything that you um want to share that I haven't asked you?

Maeve: 1:00:01

I'm just grateful to get to talk about this stuff. I love, uh, geeking out about all of these things with you. Um, oh, I can't think of. I mean I have a couple of books on the horizon which are kind of fun and projects so yeah, I'm creating a erotic planner. Oh so I I got excited, which is gonna.

Maeve: 1:00:26

My goal is to have it released by january amazing um, but I think you know people on your podcast come from a lot of different locations. A lot of my resources are local to Portland, but in general I would check out the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom.

Maeve: 1:00:42

There are folks who don't know about that. It's a great resource on consent. Consent Academy is also a great resource on consent, and I would say that those are two resources that I go to time and time again. Uh, in both kink and ethical non-monogamy, If you check those out, you're going to have a good framework to start your you know, start your journey.

Ellecia: 1:01:02

I love that, and how can people find you?

Maeve: 1:01:05

Uh, I do have a website, wwwmavemcbridecom. Uh, the it's got information on a lot of the things I do. I'm also on Instagram, mavemcbridepdx, and uh, let's see, I'm on FetLife as mavemcbride all one word, um. And I own a uh, rope suspension and education studio here in Portland called Studio 201.

Ellecia: 1:01:28

Amazing, amazing. I'll put links in the show notes and people can link on, click on things and do all of that. I'm so happy you came on, thank you.

Maeve: 1:01:36

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it and it's nice to get to talk with you.

Ellecia: 1:01:42

Wow, what an incredible conversation with Maeve McBride. I hope you're walking away with some new insights and maybe a little inspiration to explore some of your own desires. Thanks for joining us today. I adore you. Bye.