Polyamory Explored: Jealousy, Communication and Coming Out Strategies With Kathy Labriola

Are you grappling with jealousy in your non-monogamous relationships? Curious about the differences between solo polyamory and relationship anarchy? In this eye-opening episode, I'm joined by the legendary Kathy Labriola, a counselor, nurse, and author with decades of experience guiding polyamorous and non-monogamous folks.

Mastering Jealousy

• Understanding why jealousy arises and how it differs from envy or coveting
• Practical strategies for addressing the root causes of jealousy

Solo Polyamory vs. Relationship Anarchy

• Exploring the nuances between these relationship styles
• How different approaches impact emotional dynamics

Building Trust and Communication

• Techniques for creating more honest, deep communication in your relationships
• Strategies for emotional growth and embracing openness

Coming Out as Polyamorous

• Kathy's unique "platform release strategy" for navigating this process
• Balancing personal authenticity with potential consequences

About Kathy Labriola:

Kathy Labriola is a counselor, nurse, and author with extensive experience in guiding polyamorous and non-monogamous individuals. Her recently updated book, Love and Abundance: A Counselor's Advice on Open Relationships, offers a wealth of wisdom gained from decades in the field.
www.kathylabriola.com

Whether you're dealing with feelings of insecurity, navigating new relationship dynamics, or simply curious about the intricacies of non-monogamous relationships, this episode provides valuable perspectives to enhance your understanding and practice of ethical non-monogamy.

Join us for this thought-provoking discussion that challenges conventional notions of love and relationships, encouraging listeners to explore what authenticity and connection truly mean to them in the context of non-monogamy.

Don't forget to leave a review if you enjoy this episode – it's the best way to help the podcast grow and reach more people interested in exploring non-monogamous relationships!

https://elleciapaine.com/call

Chapters

• 0:00 Navigating Non-Monogamous Relationships
• 10:11 Navigating the Challenge of Coming Out
• 17:53 Exploring Relationship Structure in Polyamory
• 35:55 Navigating Jealousy in Polyamory
• 51:39 Differentiating Relationship Solutions

Transcript

Ellecia: 0:00

Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non-monogamous relationship coach, and today, on Nope, we're Not Monogamous I'm joined by the legendary Kathy Labriola, a counselor, a nurse and an author who's been guiding polyamorous and non-monogamous people for decades. The updated second edition of her book Love in Abundance A Counselor's Advice on Open Relationships, was just released a couple of weeks ago, and it's packed with decades of polyamorous wisdom. So today we're going to talk about mastering jealousy. You can learn why jealousy arises, how it differs from envy or coveting and how to address its root causes. We're also talking about solo polyamory versus relationship anarchy, so there's like a whole diverse relationship style that can really impact emotional dynamics. So we're going to look at that, plus some strategies for emotional growth, discover ways to build trust, embrace openness and create, like more honest communication, more deep communication in your relationships. And we're also going to talk about coming out as polyamorous or non-monogamous. Kathy shares a really unique platform release strategy for navigating this process. You'll want to check it out. So, whether you are dealing with feelings of insecurity, navigating new relationships, curious about the distinctions between jealousy and envy, all the different things, this episode has some game-changing perspectives for you.

Ellecia: 1:24

And if you enjoy this episode or any of the episodes. Do me a really huge favor and leave a review. This is the number one way for a podcast to grow and get noticed by more people. You would be making a really huge impact on the world with this one little tiny thing and I would appreciate you thing and I would appreciate you enjoy. Bye, yay, awesome, uh, I'm. I'm excited that you're here again. Uh, get rid of me. So that was probably like uh 11 episodes ago or so, which is great, cause I come out every two weeks, wow.

Kathy: 2:16

You are busy, a busy little bee, that's great.

Ellecia: 2:19

Well, I mean not as busy as you.

Kathy: 2:21

you're writing books as busy as you. You're writing books. That's true. I keep, for some reason. I keep thinking I have more to say and then I have to write another book. My only reason for writing books is I only write books when I've waited for years for someone else to write that book and no one does, and I'm annoyed. So I think, well, why didn't someone else write this, so I? I don't have to.

Ellecia: 2:44

Uh-huh, uh-huh. Well, I'll just say the things then, right.

Kathy: 2:49

Just wishing someone else would do it. Luckily, there are lots more books coming out about various types of consensually non-monogamous relationships, so it's a very exciting time the last few years there's been actually in the last two or three years there's been more books coming out about polyamory and non-monogamy than I've ever seen, and all the time I've been involved in this, yeah.

Ellecia: 3:15

It's a long time. It's amazing we have so many resources now and also still not enough.

Kathy: 3:24

There's definitely room for more. So I'm waiting for you to write your book. So I'll buy that book as soon as it comes out.

Ellecia: 3:31

Maybe next year. Okay, I want an autographed copy. All right, it's yours. You're first on the list, so this is. Is this a second edition of Love and Abundance? Yes, it is Amazing, amazing. So Love and Abundance A Counselor's Advice on Open Relationships. I read this book in probably 2014, I think, so this was really fun to see to a new, a new, updated um version. I'm curious what? What was your favorite, uh like, update or favorite thing to add?

Kathy: 4:18

well, the, you know, I added a whole introductory chapter because so much has happened in the world of polyamory and non-monogamy since I wrote the book initially in 2008. So in just you know, 15 years, an awful lot has changed, and so an update was. That was the only reason an update was needed, that all this positive change had happened since then. So that part was my favorite to write to say well, when I wrote the first book, I was interviewed on a lot of radio shows and by journalists for print newspapers and magazines, you know, and by journalists for, you know, print newspapers and magazines, because that's all we had at the time, you know, podcasts and other things, and online, you know, newspapers and things hadn't really been invented yet.

Kathy: 5:14

So I was interviewed on a lot of radio shows and by a lot of, you know, newspapers and magazines and the reporters. I would have to spend the first half of the interview explaining what consensual non-monogamy and polyamory were, because they had not really had a clue about it and they almost always confused it with non-consensual polygamy, where women are forced into marriage, whether they like it or not, with men who have multiple wives. So there was a total lack of understanding of the big difference between those two things by these reporters, for you know, they always said I was encouraging adultery and, you know, destroying the family and all these other things which I'm afraid I don't have the power to do, even if I wanted to. They were giving me credit or blame for a lot of things that are kind of out of my control.

Ellecia: 6:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I found that really fascinating. Actually reading in your introduction about how much um and negativity you faced in in releasing that book and interviewing and and talking to people about it. And I'll tell you that was one of my biggest fears in starting this podcast was like, man, I'm like, can I handle that kind of that kind of backlash or outcome? And that actually hasn't happened. So I just want to thank you for seriously paving a path here.

Kathy: 7:01

Well, there's certainly still plenty of haters out there on the Internet that want to you know, email you or call you or threaten you and everything else, but it's not remotely like it was back then. Yeah, yeah, I think a lot less scary for people now to try to navigate this type of non-traditional relationship and they're not nearly in as much danger, both physically and psychologically, of facing rejection by their families and fears of losing their jobs if they come out at work. And that is all still out there, but not nearly as pronounced as before.

Ellecia: 7:49

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean it's definitely still a fear that a lot of people have. I'm curious when you're talking to people about that, what, like, what kind of advice do you give people when they're worried about being rejected by their families or losing their jobs because of being polyamorous or non-monogamous?

Kathy: 8:15

well, I usually encourage them to keep their non-monogamous relationships private at first, until they learned how to really engage in this type of relationship successfully and in a healthy way, and until they're more sure that this is the path they really want in their lives, before they decide to come out at work or come out to their families or even, you know, to just be a little more public about it, because many people do try this type of relationship and decide eventually it's not really for them or that it's something they want to do now, but it's not like a long-term, lifelong relational orientation for them, and so I usually encourage people to really see how it works for them, first to work out their own problems around it, and then, if they decide this is really what they want long term and that they really are up for it, then is the time to start coming out to the people around them.

Kathy: 9:33

I especially think this is important if you're considering, for instance, including more than one partner in your life publicly, like if you're going to be bringing that partner to work-related functions and events, or if you're going to be bringing that partner or partners home to meet family. I've seen too many people go through thinking they're madly in love with a new person and bringing everybody home to meet mom, and then, like a month later, the whole thing blows up and breaks. They break up and then it's they're left trying to explain that to their family. So I I usually say any new relationship wait at least a year before, like introducing them to family or work or your or your coworkers, or really being more public so that you don't have to deal with it. You have to feel pretty certain that person is going to be in your life longer term before wanting to present the relationships uh to family and co-workers and friends yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Ellecia: 10:43

you really got to kind of pick your battles Like is this, is this something you want to really go to war over? And like like managing, like one thing, um, especially if you've been monogamous and you're new to non-monogamy, you're navigating all of the emotions that come and and like the logical parts, like navigating calendars and schedules and stuff. That takes a lot of bandwidth, and then also trying to educate people and explain to them about your choices and defend yourself takes another whole lot of bandwidth. And so then you're starting to pile those things on top of each other.

Kathy: 11:23

Well, yeah, and to make sure everyone's on board. I mean, I've said I've seen so many people who are in a marriage or, you know, cohabiting relationship with someone. They're bringing another partner into the situation and the partner at home may not be a hundred percent okay with things yet, and yet then you're introducing this other person to your friends and family and everybody and your own partner is maybe extremely uncomfortable with that level of like, having to deal with that level of public relations, you know. Then they're having to defend your choice of doing this when they may not really be okay with it. So that's really putting someone in a very difficult position that they are having their own issues of jealousy and feeling displaced and feeling hurt by this, and yet then they're having to put up a public front of like oh yeah, everything's great. You know, we're perfectly happy with this. So don't put a pre-existing partner in that position unless they're really ready for this level of disclosure.

Ellecia: 12:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really great advice actually, because you know we often say like go as slow as the slowest partner. You know we often say like go as slow as the slowest partner, but that, yeah, is kind of kind of throwing throwing your person under the bus when they want to be supportive of you and yet they're having to I don't know Be more supportive than they naturally would be.

Kathy: 13:00

Right and they just sort of fake it when they're not really quite there yet.

Kathy: 13:05

So yeah, well, and I also think it's very important to think through the potential consequences, because there's a lot of pressure on us within the poly community to be like totally out there and public, but some people face way more consequences than others. You know there's a there can be a very high price to pay for being out of the closet. I mean this is especially true for people who are either working class or poor, or people who are people of color, who really may face way more consequences because they have less privileges and less resources. If they lose their jobs because of it, or if someone threatens to take away custody of their children, if they have to go to court to fight that, they don't maybe have the money or resources for attorneys and they're going to be at much more risk in a court situation than someone else. So it's important to think through what are the potential costs and consequences. Are you ready and able to manage that, or is that going to destroy your relationship and possibly, you know, create severe financial hardship for you?

Ellecia: 14:21

And.

Kathy: 14:21

I think a lot of times people aren't really thinking those things through for you, and I think a lot of times people aren't really thinking those things through.

Kathy: 14:30

You know there's I sometimes say there's a price to pay for coming out of the closet. There's a price for staying in the closet, too, in that you have to then be possibly lying to other people, like your family or your co-workers, or you have to be sneaking around, or you know you're having to be doing some of the things that we're trying to avoid by being openly polyamorous. So you know there's an internal and emotional price to pay, and you may be harming the people that you're in relationship with by feeling like you have to hide them and then they start to feel like they're a secret or that you're ashamed, or you know that could create a lot of issues too. So both figuring out what you're, what you're facing if you do come out further, come out more out of the closet and figuring out what you are actually going to lose by staying in the closet is also all that is very important yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.

Ellecia: 15:23

that's extremely. It's like balancing, finding, balancing the, or weighing the pros and cons, the costs and the consequences of whatever decisions you make Is there. I'm curious if you have a way that you recommend that people do that equation, Like how do they figure out, like, what could happen on either side?

Kathy: 15:52

Well, you're always making guesses to some extent, because you can't 100% predict how your family members are going to respond or how your coworkers are going to respond or how your co-workers are going to respond. I usually recommend the same, what I call the platform release strategy, which is something that, as queer people, we used to use back in the day, say back in the 1960s and 70s and I'm old enough to remember those days we used to use what we called the platform release strategy, which is you release that information on a very small platform in order to gauge the safety of coming out, and in those days it was really literally a matter of life and death. You could be beaten and killed for being gay and that still could happen, but it's a lot less likely now than it was then. So are we going to release that information the information that you're queer or, in this case, that you're poly to a very small platform, and usually that if it's your family, I always recommend trying to pick the family member that you believe is the most likely to be accepting and tell them first and you can swear them to secrecy and to get their advice on whether they think the rest of the family is going to disown you or not, because they probably know better than you do. They probably are going to be able to be a little more objective about it. So come out only to the person that you think is most likely to be supportive. Same thing with, say, friends. Come out to a friend that you feel is the most likely to be unjudgmental and accepting and then get their opinion on whether there are other friends you could tell. Similarly, at work, who's the co-worker that you think is most likely to be understanding and accepting.

Kathy: 17:53

And so it's the platform release strategy, where you release it on a very small platform. If that goes well, then you can consider releasing it on a slightly larger platform. You can consider releasing it on a slightly larger platform. Yeah, that term is just based on the way movie producers decide how to release a film. If they have a film that they don't know if it's going to make a lot of money or not, they'll just release it in a few theaters in New York, san Francisco, los Angeles and maybe Chicago and see how it does. And if it does makes money, they're going to release it to a lot more theaters and then a lot more theaters after that, depending on how it does. So it's it's kind of a strange way of describing coming out as probably, but it's, it's a useful metaphor.

Ellecia: 18:39

Yeah, yeah, I love that the platform release method. That's fantastic, just kind of gauging, gauging, gauging the response, right, and if you come out about being poly to the person in your family that you think is the most liberal or progressive or accepting, and they're like what? You're out of your freaking mind, you're crazy, you're going to hell or whatever.

Kathy: 19:15

Then you go, okay. Well then there's nobody else in my family. I'm going to tell about this anytime soon. Right right, there we go. Now I have an idea. But if they're like totally accepting and they say, oh yeah, I think the family can handle it, they'll freak out at first.

Ellecia: 19:24

But they'll be, you know, they'll calm down and be fine. Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's, that's great, amazing, amazing, um I I'm curious. You had, um, you and your in your book. You described like the different um relationship structures, different, different, uh, ways of doing polyamory. And there's a question I get a lot, which is, um, the difference between solo polyamory and relationship anarchy. And you had one in there also a multiple non-primary relationships, and so those three I think a lot of people mix up with each other or kind of confuse, and so I'm curious for you, how would you, how would you just like, what's the difference between them?

Kathy: 20:25

well, I invented the term, uh, multiple non-primary relationships, uh, I don't know, 45 years ago or something so, and I only invented the that term along with some other terms, because no terms seemed to be in existence, or I couldn't find any anyway. So I just made up things because it seemed like it described a particular style of relationship. In about 10 years ago, someone else, I don't know who, invented this term solo poly, and those two things are very similar. Solo poly is, I think, a better term, and I wish I had thought of it 45 years ago, but I didn't, so someone else did, thank goodness. And I think those things are very similar.

Kathy: 21:16

What they involve is someone who is not seeking a primary relationship. They're not seeking. They don't want to live together, get married and be in. They don't want to be part of a couple. They want to be single but have fabulous love affairs and have, you know, love, affection, emotional intimacy, sex, companionship. You know they want all the things that people naturally want out of relationships, but they're not looking to jump on that relationship escalator and go towards living together, getting married and really being part of a couple that is making decisions together as a couple. They want to be independent. They want to be single and luckily now we have that option.

Kathy: 22:11

You know, in the past it was just always assumed if you were even dating someone, you were on the way to like this whole, you know whole trajectory which would ultimately end in getting married.

Kathy: 22:24

So that's not really what someone who's either solo, poly or seeking multiple non-primary relationships is looking for, and the good news is that that's something that people can ask for but need to be very explicit about.

Kathy: 22:46

Can ask for, but need to be very explicit about and be very careful that they're fishing in the right pond, that they're getting together with other people in relationship that want the same thing, and oftentimes someone who's solo, poly or in this multiple non-primary relationship model of polyamory, they often will get involved with someone who's already married, so they're not looking for that, they've already got that at home. Or they'll get together with other people who are also very much engaged in other things in life which preclude them from really seeking a primary relationship. Usually these are folks who are essentially married to something else. They are either married to their work, they're very, very invested in their careers, or they're very passionate about being artists or musicians, or they're a single parent raising children and they're just very focused on that, not really wanting to have a primary relationship, or they're very devoted to political activism or some kind of social change work, so they're really just not oriented towards a primary relationship.

Ellecia: 24:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense. And then what, excuse me, what, what? What about relationship anarchy? Like it feels similar, but maybe not.

Kathy: 24:25

Well, I think it may look similar from the outside, but just to the casual observer it may look similar, but with relationship anarchy, each relationship is allowed to rise to its own natural level. Each relationship is allowed to evolve organically to whatever seems right for that relationship. And that often is not the same as solo poly. It often involves someone developing some very long-term and committed relationships. They're just not really promising anyone that it will and that's not what they're seeking as like the one true path of relationship. They're not entering any relationship thinking this is going to lead to living together or marriage or a committed relationship. They're entering a relationship, have a very open mind about how this relationship may evolve and they don't want to try to force it into any particular form.

Kathy: 25:49

More of a shorter-term experience, like where they may be engaged in that model for a few years but then eventually decide they really want a more hierarchical relationship, in that they want one person to become more of a primary relationship. Again, for some people it really is a long-term relationship. Energy can be a very long-term relational orientation and it can be a long-term lifestyle. My experience is that for a lot more people it is a shorter-term thing. That is really a very rewarding and fulfilling relational model for them for some period of time, but not forever.

Ellecia: 26:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense to me. A lot of people ask me about those things like solo, poly, relationship, anarchy, and then like, but isn't that just dating, right? Like what's the difference between that and dating? And I'm usually like well, dating to look for a monogamous partner, or versus dating to to meet people and continue to be polyamorous are definitely two different things. And um, and it seems like a lot of people use those terms when that's not actually what they mean- Use the terms like relationship, anarchy. Uh-huh.

Kathy: 27:27

Yeah, yes, there's kind of an ugly underbelly to a certain segment of the poly community that ascribes to relationship anarchy, and what I mean by that is that it tends to be much more heterosexual men who want relationship anarchy as a way of evading or commitment to any female partner, and it often takes the form of them getting involved with any number of women but not promising them anything and not being committed to anything and just keeping them guessing and keeping them in an experience of extreme insecurity, of never knowing what they can count on. You know, can I even count on a date on Saturday night, much less any kind of ongoing relationship? Don't you feel like every week you're on a like weekly lease with this relationship? Is it going to be over next week, or is someone else going to be more important to you next week and I'm going to be less important, you know, or next month or whatever? So again, I don't mean in any way to demonize the men. I've seen a few women do the same thing.

Kathy: 28:56

Anyone of any gender could do this but it does seem to be sometimes an excuse for heterosexual men to just be players in the old-fashioned sense, you know, of just wanting to have a lot of women at their beck and call and not really promising them anything or not really being willing to make any kind of commitment to them, which is not at all the goal of relationship anarchy.

Kathy: 29:28

It's not that people in relationship anarchy don't make commitments to anyone, it's that they decide on a case-by-case basis and negotiate with each person what level of commitment they're going to have. And for some men, unfortunately, and a few women, it is a way of evading any kind of responsibility in relationships. And similarly to the way some people who have what used to be called sex addiction but is now more often called, you know, compulsive sexual behavior, some people that have compulsive sexual behaviors and an unhealthy and compulsive relationship with sex will use the cover of polyamory to act out their addictive behaviors and they're not really good relationship partners and are likely to harm any partner that they get involved in. But they'll claim I'm just being polyamorous. But it leads to a lot of pain and suffering.

Ellecia: 30:32

Yeah, yeah. I think it's really important to talk about those things, because entirely too many people kind of wind up gaslighting themselves into accepting bad behavior or behavior that isn't at the level that they would like from their relationships, because, oh well, this partner, you know, they say they're a relationship anarchist, or they say they're polyamorous, they're not behaving the way I think that should be, but well, that's, that's what they are. So I guess this is what I have to accept, and so I think it's important to like point out that, like you know, not everybody is behaving as lovely and ethically as we would all like like them to be.

Kathy: 31:20

That's very true. I mean, I think it's important to recognize that people who engage in monogamous relationships generally do so for a mixture of healthy and unhealthy reasons, and people who engage in polyamorous relationships do so for a mixture of healthy and unhealthy reasons. We all have motivations that are very mixed. I think all of us, you know, have some woundings from our past and from our childhood and all of these other things. So, you know, we come to relations and we have indoctrination from, you know, our culture and from society and from our, uh, training and gender socialization.

Kathy: 32:04

So none of us, I don't think, can claim that our we're so enlightened, uh, that our motivations for relationships are totally clean. You know they're mixed. So the best we can do is really examine our motives, examine why are we feeling compelled towards a particular relational model, whether that's monogamy or whether it's polyamory, and if it is a consensual non-monogamy, what model of it is most attractive to us and why? And as long as we can be honest with ourselves and hopefully with our partners, about both our healthy and unhealthy motivations, I think we can have very healthy relationships. I just think to try to hide that shadow side and make believe that, oh, we're only motivated toward non-monogamy because that's the most enlightened relationship style, or that that means we've done so much personal growth, etc. There are a lot of reasons for it and there are certainly some people in the poly community who are motivated by very unhealthy needs that they probably need therapy for rather than to mess up other people's lives by dragging them into their dysfunction.

Kathy: 33:31

Yeah, yeah yeah, absolutely uh, I mean monogamous people should look at their motivations too. You know what's driving them to really need monogamy or want monogamy. It could be very, very healthy, or it could be for some, you know, very unhealthy reasons.

Ellecia: 33:53

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That, like self-awareness and self-exploration. We should all be doing it.

Kathy: 34:07

Right, I'm not judging them for being monogamous. I just think we should be looking at our own motives and social day as to what's actually driving them.

Ellecia: 34:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And there was oh communication. That was the other thing I want to talk to you about, because you said something in your book. You said the two keys to successfully communicating your needs to your partners are being willing to admit that you've guessed wrong about what you could handle, and telling the truth about your needs even though you know your partner will not, will not or may not be happy with what you're asking for.

Ellecia: 34:49

And I love that quote so much because it's, I think, probably one of the biggest things that I see in challenges for people in relationships and non-monogamous relationships and monogamous but just is like can we talk about the things? Can I talk about what I want? And then I'm always telling my clients you get to change your mind, because when you started this, you said that you wanted hierarchical polyamory uh, kitchen table. You know, like you said, you listed off the things you wanted and then you went and had experiences and went oh, actually, maybe some of those things aren't what I want. You get to change your mind, you just have to talk about it.

Kathy: 35:39

That's true, very true. I mean, I think we just have to be humble about acknowledging that well, this sounded great, but you know it's not really working for me. That well, this sounded great, but you know it's not really working for me. Or, especially, if you have egg on your face and you demanded something of your partner that you can't deliver yourself and, believe me, I've done that. Been there, I'm sure we all have, you know, said well, you know, you have had unfair expectations of your partner and you actually can't do what you've asked them to do. So all we can do is just humbly admit that. You know, sorry, I made a mistake. I thought this would work for me, and often that's the only way you can find out if someone has crossed your boundaries is by having them step on your toes and go out. That hurts. I mean, how would we know, especially for people who are new to non-monogamy, how could we possibly know how we're going to feel about something that we've never experienced before?

Ellecia: 36:47

Yeah, we're. We're really bad at guessing how we're going to feel about things that we haven't experienced. Right, and how would we? Yes, how would we're? We're really bad at guessing how we're going to feel about things that we haven't experienced.

Kathy: 36:52

Right, and how would we? Yes, how would we you know? So yeah, yeah.

Kathy: 36:57

So, I mean, I think it's even more ideal if, before you venture into polyamory for the first time, if you're able to be honest about the fact that, well, this is all new territory, this is scary. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, and neither do my partners probably have any idea what they're doing. It helps if you have a partner or partners that have done this for a long time, but then it's often you're just all stumbling around in the dark because you've never done it before. So all the more reason. We need your podcast and we need books and we need all these great online resources that we now have and why we need polyamory support and discussion groups, many of which exist all around. So you know, avail yourselves of those resources.

Kathy: 37:51

I really encourage people to do the homework, do the reading, listen to podcasts, find out as much information as you can. I mean, you wouldn't try to climb Mount Everest without you know. Training for a year, you know with experts and really practicing and falling down a lot in a place where you're not going to get killed, as opposed to trying to climb Mount Everest and falling in the first ravine and getting killed, uh-huh, uh-huh, and hiring a Sherpa. There you go Lots of them. Yeah, to help to do the heavy lifting. Yeah, because they're way more skilled at mountain climbing than we are.

Kathy: 38:31

So yes and so going to a coach like you or going to a counselor like me, or finding people that you can get help from, is really very important, and if you're, if you're wise, you'll do some of that before you get started with any kind of polyamorous relationship. Unfortunately, it doesn't usually work that way. People often stumble into it accidentally and then go oh no, we are lost. What do we do? We're lost and there are no Sherpas inside.

Ellecia: 39:04

Yep, yep, yep, amazing, amazing. I'm curious, is there? Well, first of all, when, when does this edition of the book come out? I just came out a couple of weeks ago. Yes, wonderful, wonderful. So people can just find it in all the places that you buy books.

Kathy: 39:26

I really encourage people to either buy the book directly from me on my website or buy it from bookshoporg or indiebandorg, because those are independent booksellers and that small profit that exists in bookselling will go to independent booksellers rather than Amazon or people we won't name.

Ellecia: 39:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and that, uh, you don't need your money, right.

Kathy: 39:55

Exactly. They don't really need that money of yours, those precious dollars that you have.

Ellecia: 40:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, really, really important. Uh, is it? It's Kathy labriolacom, right, that's it Amazing. Is there anything else that you want to share that I haven't asked you.

Kathy: 40:16

Well, one thing that I would like to share is that people often are surprised when they experience jealousy. When they experience jealousy and they often judge themselves or their partners for experiencing jealousy. And I always want to encourage people to be gentle with yourself and with your partners because it's a normal, natural response. And people call me and say well gosh, I was, I didn't think I would be jealous, I thought I was. So, you know, had done the personal growth work and I never thought I'd be jealous. I'm so shocked that I'm jealous and I usually respond by saying well, I'm shocked that you're shocked. You know why wouldn't you be jealous?

Kathy: 41:35

It's a primal emotional response that comes from, really, that reptilian, that ancient reptilian part of our brain that is that fight or flight kind of survival reflex. It's a kind of primal response to a perceived threat to our survival. And in relationships we do have this feeling that our very survival is threatened if we think the relationship is threatened and often the relationship is not even threatened, but we have a very strong belief that it is that any other person coming into our relationship or being involved with our partner feels like a very primal threat to us. And the fact is that any outside relationship is a potential threat. Emphasis on the word potential, potential threat because we this is an unknown kind of situation and it's a it can be disruptive and destabilizing to a relationship for any number of reasons. So I always encourage people to try to see it as okay.

Kathy: 42:39

This is potentially threatening. It doesn't mean in actuality it's threatening. But I have to trust that my instinct. There's some reason for this instinct I have, and that reason is I want to protect my relationship. This is a precious relationship. This person is a beloved and the relationship is important to me. It's valuable to me. I want to protect the relationship. That's why I'm feeling jealous. So I need to look at why am I feeling jealous? What's going on? How can I make sure that my relationship is okay and is safe and is secure? Relationship is okay and is safe and is secure and then I'll be able to turn down the volume on that jealousy and feel a little safer and more comfortable with this situation.

Ellecia: 43:41

Yeah, yeah. I think that that's so, so, so important, because we have kind of really villainized jealousy as like you're doing something wrong or someone's harming you Otherwise. You absolutely shouldn't feel it when it's such a normal human emotion. It's just, you know, your nervous system going hey, here's the thing to watch out for right.

Kathy: 44:14

I sometimes describe it as like uh, you know, some, some people have cars with car alarms that are a little bit overactive. Yeah, you know, and the car alarm will go off if you're just walking 10 feet from it, you know. Yes, well, you know, it doesn't mean you want to disconnect that car alarm because someone will steal your car. So don't disconnect your jealousy alarm, but just like turn it down, make it, you know, a little more realistic. So you know, like the car alarm, you don't want it to go off until someone is actually breaking into your car.

Ellecia: 44:42

Yeah, you know, that's funny. As you say that, I think of my German shepherd who the wind blows wrong and he just starts barking at all the windows. There's an intruder. I got to protect you and I'm like dude, relax, it's fine.

Kathy: 45:03

Yeah, yes, that's a, that's a similar reaction, you know, and and you don't want to disconnect the German Shepherd alarm either, in case someone is breaking into the house, uh-huh, yeah.

Ellecia: 45:15

Yeah, he's still a part of the family, it's okay.

Kathy: 45:18

We just got to give him some comfort, yeah so I just, I always tell people to expect jealousy and accept it. Expect it and accept it if it, whether it's you or your partner and even if your partner, for instance, is having an extremely irrational, over-the-top jealousy attack, don't tell them. They're wrong. Don't tell them. You know they're being ridiculous, you know that's not helping. You know you need to validate that. They have every right to have a reaction. They have every right to feel anxious and fearful and upset about this, and let's talk about it and let's see what we can. Is it something internal to them, something from their past? Is it something about this other partner? That there's something specific about that person that they don't like or that makes them feel distrustful? Or, you know, try to, instead of focusing on oh, you shouldn't be jealous, focus on, well, what's going on and how can we make this situation more manageable for everyone? Yeah, I think we often invalidate our partners. Right, we're trying to make them feel better by saying oh, you have nothing to worry about, everything's fine.

Kathy: 46:41

but that just makes them feel like, well, you're lying to me or you know, or it feels like you're just minimizing my fit, you're trivializing or ridiculing my feelings. People have to have room to have their feelings. The feelings are not facts. That's an important thing to remember. The feelings are feelings. They don't have to be related to the actual facts of the situation and if you just keep throwing facts at them, it's not really addressing the fact that there's a feeling there that needs to be accepted and understood and to help them feel a little calmer, feel a little better, before they can start talking about really the facts of the situation.

Ellecia: 47:20

Yes, yes, yes, exactly that's that's really. That's what it all comes down to is got to calm down first, then we can talk about what's really going on yeah, I, I haven't.

Kathy: 47:35

Uh, I recommend to people to really try to get into the feeling state if your partner is jealous or upset about something to do with a poly relationship, because there's often this disconnect where you're going facts, facts, facts, logic, rationality and they're going feelings, feelings, feelings. You're not communicating. You're just not communicating there. So you really have to get that on the feeling level and say well, what are they feeling? I don't, you know, having a you're not a lawyer in court arguing your case. You know, and you're not going to win over your partner with that, with a persuasive, rational argument. You're needing to get into their feeling state and understand why they're feeling the way they are yeah, and address that.

Ellecia: 48:23

Yes, yes, yes, exactly exactly.

Kathy: 48:27

Are you just going to make it worse, not better that, exactly, exactly. Are you just going to make it worse, not better that? I see that all the time, unfortunately. I also recommend to people to try to differentiate whether you're feeling jealousy or whether it's something different, whether it's envy or coveting these three different you know big, scary things can often be really confused and I really try to encourage people to try to figure out which it is. I try to explain it as jealousy is it's all mine and you can't have any, whereas coveting is you have something I want, I'm going to steal it from you. And the third thing, envy, is wow, you've got something going that's really great. I want some of what you have, or I want to go out and find something like it, because I can see you've got something really great happening.

Kathy: 49:34

So, if you can figure out which it is, usually jealousy happens when you're in a relationship and your partner has another partner or new partner and you're feeling like you're going to lose something. You feel like all of your love and attention belongs to me, but you're giving some of it to someone else. So I'm afraid I feel like I'm losing something here and I don't want to share. I don't feel like I want to share. I feel like there's a scarcity I don't want to share, whereas coveting is usually. If you're the person, there's some so-called outside relationship. You're coming into a situation where your partner has a spouse or a primary relationship and you're seeing well, I want that. So the only way to get it you feel like the only way to get it is to get rid of the spouse and steal this partner away from their spouse. That's sort of the old fashioned monogamous view.

Ellecia: 50:39

Yeah.

Kathy: 50:40

And oftentimes, even though we're poly, we can be victim to that view and feel like the only way I can get what I want is to get my partner to dump their spouse so I can have them. And we have to overcome that thinking because you can get what you want without them having to leave their spouse. And then the third thing envy. Envy is actually the easiest one, the least difficult one to deal with, because envy is like wow, I see my partner has a really great relationship with their partner or their spouse. I want some of that. I want them to give me some of their time and attention because they're really great. I really want some of that. Or, if I can't get that, I need to just go out and find it with someone else. I can see they have a great relationship. I can admire and respect that. I could see it's possible to have a great relationship. I'm going to go out and find someone like that and have a relationship.

Kathy: 51:39

Yeah, yeah, it is so important to differentiate which one of those you're experiencing, because then you can figure out what to do If you don't have different solutions they have different solutions, so you could be trying, you could be trying to solve their own problem and you're not going to be looking towards the right solution and you're going to be miserable.

Ellecia: 52:03

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I love that. That's, that's really, really great, and I so appreciate you sharing all of your wisdom and experience with us. The way that you do so generously, it's amazing. Thank you.

Kathy: 52:21

Thank you. It's really fun having a chance to talk about all these things that are so near and dear to my heart. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yes, some of my favorite subjects.

Ellecia: 52:33

I agree, me too. Oh, fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on. Nope, we're not monogamous again, and I'm going to put your information in the show notes in case anybody missed how to reach you or the title of your book Love and Abundance A Counselor's Advice on Open Relationships. And thank you, thank you.