The Anxious Person's Toolkit for Successful Non-Monogamous Connections with Lola Phoenix

Are you navigating the emotional landscape of non-monogamy? In this episode, I chat with Lola Phoenix, author of "The Anxious Person's Guide to Non-Monogamy", "The Non-monogamy Journal", and host of the "Non-Monogamy Help" podcast. We chat about the complexities of open relationships and how to build a toolkit for managing the intense emotions that often arise.

Key Insights:

• The importance of having a personal "anchor" in non-monogamous relationships
• Creating a self-care emergency protocol for challenging emotional moments
• Why traditional advice like "just go on a date night" might not always work
• How to approach STI discussions and boundaries in open relationships
• The value of community support in navigating non-monogamous lifestyles

We explore the concept of an "anchor" - a personal reason for choosing non-monogamy that goes beyond just keeping your current relationship intact. Lola explains why this is crucial for weathering the inevitable emotional storms that come with opening up a relationship.

A Peek Into the Episode:

"I think that anxiety is actually a pretty normal reaction for most people to their relationship opening. And I don't think that you necessarily have to be an anxious person to be super anxious when that's happening." ~Lola Phoenix

Lola challenges the notion that you can simply "research your way out of feelings" and offers practical advice for creating a self-care plan. We discuss the importance of writing down your strategies for managing difficult emotions, as your brain might not be in a learning state when you're feeling activated.

We also touch on the sometimes heartbreaking situations Lola encounters in their advice column, where non-monogamy isn't the real issue, but rather a symptom of deeper relationship problems.

Whether you're new to non-monogamy or a seasoned explorer, this conversation offers valuable perspectives on building healthier, more authentic relationships. Join us as we unpack the emotional complexities of open relationships and discover tools for creating more fulfilling connections.

Check out Lola's books and resources at nonmonogamyhelp.com, and stay tuned for their upcoming course on practical non-monogamy skills.

https://elleciapaine.com/call

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ellecia: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Nope, We're Not Monogamous. I'm your host and relationship coach, Elixia Payne. And today we're going to get real about the emotional side of non monogamy. If you ever feel lost when you're facing jealousy or insecurity in your relationships. You're not alone, obviously, and there's a lot better ways to handle it than just getting over it.

Today I've got Lola Phoenix joining me to help unpack all of this, and Lola isn't just someone who writes about non monogamy, they live it, and they share their learning through their books like The Anxious Person's Guide to Non Monogamy, And their new non monogamy journal. Um, and they also have a popular podcast called Non Monogamy Help.

So they've been through it all. They have tons of insights to share. In today's episode, Lola is going to talk about why it's crucial to have clear boundaries, what ethical polyamory really looks like, and how to build an emotional toolkit that actually works for you. Plus, we're going to talk about the importance of [00:01:00] community support in making your relationships work.

If you've ever felt overwhelmed by all the feelings that come with open relationships with non monogamy, polyamory, swinging, stick around. This conversation might just change how you handle those challenges. And if you find our conversation today helpful, don't forget to follow us wherever you get your podcasts at.

And please, please, please drop a review. It really helps spread the word and let other people know we're out here. Enjoy. Welcome, and thank you for coming on to Nope, We're Not Monogamous. Uh, I'm really happy to have you. Uh, I would love if you could tell the listeners just real quick who you are. 

[00:01:43] Lola Phoenix: Yeah, so I'm Lola Phoenix, I'm the author of The Anxious Person's Guide to Non Monogamy.

I also write a weekly, um, advice column and podcast called Non Monogamy Help. So people write me different questions and things like that. And I kind of fell into that on accident. [00:02:00] I kind of got into, um, I was really into LiveJournal and into the Sex Tips LiveJournal community actually. And, um, I just, I liked helping people and I, I became sort of super interested in sexuality.

Um, as like an autistic, hyper focused thing. And eventually it kind of went into Polyamory. Just it, it, there are a lot of common communities there. And over time, when I was giving advice as well on Polyamory subreddits and forums, people started emailing me directly for advice. And I was like, Oh, I actually enjoy doing this.

Maybe I should like do a column. That'd be kind of fun. And yeah, it just came into a column, went into a podcast, went into a book. Um, and I've also written the Nomenogamy Journal, which is a little bit more for folks to kind of test out their boundaries, like see different scenarios. So yeah, that's, that's basically me.

[00:02:54] Ellecia: Sorry, I just sneezed. No worries. No worries. Um, [00:03:00] that's amazing. I, I really, uh, enjoyed your book. Uh, you know, Thank you. Being an anxious person.

Um, I'm, I'm curious, so, excuse me. So you wrote the, The Anxious Person's Guide to Non Monogamy, and then now you're coming out with the Non Monogamy Journal. Is that right? Yes. That's it. That's amazing. I love it. Um, I was going through the non monogamy journal and looking at the way you did, um, all of these like scenarios or situations that you might find yourself in and then how to like break it down and, and kind of dig into what's going on and, and find your way through it.

And I absolutely love that. And I'm curious how you came to figure out Elixr. That structure. 

[00:03:55] Lola Phoenix: Well, I think when I, I noticed when Pete, when I was giving people advice, [00:04:00] a lot of the kind of difficulty of the situation was firstly, that they had never encountered a situation before. Like some of the, some things you'll encounter in both monogamy and polyamory, right?

Like it's, it's, Relationships, human nature. But for some people, these situations, you know, they didn't have any kind of cultural scripts for, if we think about monogamy, like you kind of are faced with monogamous situations throughout media, you know, your friends are in situations, you have a community you can ask about if, if stuff happens to you, you know, even if you go into a Reddit relationships thread, like there's so many different.

places where you get exposure. So if it does happen to you, you might have already kind of thought about, Oh, what would I do in this situation? So I think that the difficulty can sometimes be that A, you're introduced this brand new, and then you don't have a community. Like a lot of people don't have a community.

And even if you have a community of PolyM people, maybe they all know you and your [00:05:00] partner. So it's like awkward to like ask them. And, and there's also a kind of shame thing that happens in a lot of communities where like, you don't want to be seen as having a problem in your relationship because it, you know, your reputation, like there's issues around that.

Right. So as I was going through this, I was like, actually, I see this situation happening quite a lot. Or this is such a unique situation that I think a lot of people wouldn't have really thought of this. And this actually presents a really challenging ethical scenario that People should maybe think about because it will lead to often other discussions.

So I kind of thought about it. initially in different themes with, you know, because I organize my columns in different themes, like managing emotions, you know, long distance, things like that, so I tried to kind of sort them through different themes. I wrote out like the, the sort of common, like a little bit of common scenarios that I would see both like in all of the Reddit stuff I've done and like all of the columns that I've done.

And then I would also think about, [00:06:00] okay, what are some basic things that people should also think about, especially with regards to like STI things, um, and your boundaries around that. So I tried to think about major themes, and I also, I tried to include things that you might come across, like definitely might, that you wouldn't necessarily think, and then also like things that maybe are a little bit random, but still are interesting to think about and interesting to talk with a partner about.

Um, and do you want me to give you an example? 

[00:06:29] Ellecia: Yeah. 

[00:06:30] Lola Phoenix: Yeah, one of the scenarios, and I can find it in the book if you want me to find it, but um, one of the scenarios is that I sometimes see, not necessarily always, but it presents itself in different ways, is a person who is known in their community or online as being with someone, so everyone sort of thinks they're monogamous.

and they kind of find themselves getting in touch with an old flame or someone that they were previously interested in or someone who has the perception that they're monogamous and then starts to be [00:07:00] really flirty and then starts to kind of ask them out without knowing that they're polyamorous. So sometimes people are so caught up in the fact that, oh, it's this old flame, I'm so excited.

It's like, yeah, it's this old flame, but they think you're monogamous. And they're okay with helping you cheat. Is that really a person, you know, then you have to think about, is that a person that's okay for you to be with as someone? And I think a lot of people as well don't realize, especially when they're in scenarios where they're thinking of opening up their relationship for this one person and this one chance, the one that got away, is some people are fine helping people cheat, but they don't want to be non monogamous in an ethical way.

Yeah. So there's lots of things like that. And like, what would you do if your partner was interested, you know, is there an ethical dilemma there of like, someone thinks that they're helping you cheat, even though you aren't cheating. What if you allow them to continue to think that? Is that okay? You know, if it's a one night stand, maybe you [00:08:00] think that's okay.

Like, there's lots of things that I think People don't, you never see that kind of scenario. I mean, maybe as, as time goes on, we'll see that in, you know, an episode of, of modern day friends or what have you, but like that as, as now, like, it's not, I've never seen that in any kind of media. So when it happens, people will, there's no guidebook.

There's no, it's, it's the shock of the scenario as well as the uniqueness of the scenario that's so jarring for them. 

[00:08:27] Ellecia: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And trying to work through it in like, okay, if I'm non monogamous is like, what, what, where is the, where are the lines? And they, they, they tend to feel really wobbly without, without having, you know, hundreds of years of, of, uh, what everybody is supposed to do backing it up.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Were there any, um, I'm curious if you have any, was there any favorite scenario that you wrote about? [00:09:00] 

[00:09:00] Lola Phoenix: Um, I think the thing that I always like to, I think it's, it's one of the scenarios, I can't remember which one, but the thing that I always like to really encourage people to think about is kind of examine their, their sort of childhood or, or their, their teenage education around STIs and what assumptions they make based on that.

Cause I know like my biggest kind of moment of reckoning and was, you know, I'm, I'm not as much of a casual person and that's fine. I tend to date people who are more casual people and I remember in one relationship that I had, I kind of wanted to enforce this rule. To be fair, I am immunocompromised, so I do have reasons to be worried about my health, but like, I wanted to enforce a rule of like, okay, you can't sleep with someone until you've known them for at least a week.

And my partner rightfully pushed back on that. I was like, well, what, what is a week going to do with regards to STIs? Like, that's not going to Matter. And I was like, Oh, actually that's true. [00:10:00] Like, I think there's a lot that goes into STIs that I think sometimes people make assumptions. There, there's definitely one relationship that I had where I both assumed that we had the same conception of what safe sex was, and we didn't.

And then they ended up having what I would have called unsafe sex with someone and I was really uncomfortable and they were like, well, that isn't what I thought it was. So like, I think there's so many things around STIs, especially. You know, in the U. S. when you don't really get any kind of good sex education, um, it's really worth us just kind of thinking about your boundaries around that and thinking about where those boundaries come from, because I think that those are the boundaries that sometimes people feel a little bit more comfortable with asserting.

Or, or like boundaries and sometimes they're just rules, you know, to control somebody else's behavior. I think people feel more confident about that because of the conceptions of clean and dirty and things like that. Um, so I think that my favorite ones are those because I think some of [00:11:00] this stuff people wouldn't have thought about and this will be the first time or they'll have thought about it, but they haven't thought about it from a non monogamy standpoint.

But I think people do and have thought about STIs. But they haven't really had the education about it to necessarily pick a, pick it apart, or they don't understand that like, you know, all sex has a risk to it. And, and you can, you can minimize that, but you can't completely get rid of it. So I think that would probably be one of my favorites that I, that I hope that people find a little bit You know, they maybe rethink, have that moment that I did where I was like, Oh, actually, is this, is this rule, is this attempt to control 

[00:11:37] Ellecia: the situation really going to control it?

Right, right. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. This idea that like, well, the better you know someone, the less likely they are to have an STI. Like, like sometimes our logic does weird jumps. 

[00:11:52] Lola Phoenix: Yeah. I mean, it's like the more comfortable you feel like trusting that they're going to tell you the truth. But if you begin a relationship believing someone's lying to [00:12:00] you, 

[00:12:01] Ellecia: Yup, I say that all the time, like if you can't trust what they're telling you, why are you having sex with them?

Yeah. Yeah. And for some people that's a thing, high risk sex is the thing. Or they just don't want to ask. Or they don't want to ask. Yeah. Yeah. There is that like fear or shame around just talking about it. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Are there any, um, are there any scenarios that You wrote about, that were like from your own experience?

[00:12:36] Lola Phoenix: Um, a few of them were. Uh, one of the ones that I, was actually my first experience of technically non monogamy. Um, and it was around, I was very, very much in the idea of, you know, like, I'm going to prepare, I'm going to read, I'm going to know, and then I won't have any negative emotions. Right. Um, I'll do like what, what I refer to as like the polyamory PhD, right?

Like I'm going to, [00:13:00] I'm going to study and I'm not going to have any, I'm going to be ready. And I ended up in situation, in a situation where basically someone used me to cheat more or less. Um, but. I knew who they, I knew who their partner was. Um, and I wanted to talk to them. I was like, I can add them on Facebook and talk to them.

And, and the person was like, no, no, no. Um, and, and there were contexts where it made a little bit of sense for them to, cause they were like, I'd refer you meet in person and I was going to be in the area. So it wasn't completely, but I think what I learned from that is like, I just, I didn't want to be jealous.

Like, that's the thing. And like so many of my sort of alarm bells were ringing. But I was like, Oh, but that's jealousy. That's jealousy. And I don't want to be jealous. So I got to be cool with everything. And I think that is, that is definitely one thing that I want people to kind of be aware of is like, not, not every negative emotion that you have is jealousy.

You don't have to be cool with [00:14:00] everything. Like listen to yourself a little bit. It's, it's kind of hard. Like, I think it, it comes with practice in general in life, right? Like listening to your intuition, being able to trust yourself and trust your, your own kind of internal warning systems. But that definitely, I think, in, especially in non monogamy and especially if you are in communities where I feel like it's getting better, but definitely when I, When I was, when I was a young person, whatever, when I was practicing polyamory, you know, earlier, like a decade ago, I felt like there was such a strong, strong, almost shame a little bit and feeling jealousy and almost this kind of like, you must not be jealous.

We all say there's no one right way to practice polyamory, but then the sort of underlying message is the best way is to not be jealous and to be happy with everything, right? So I, I really, really want people to understand that, Hey, it's okay. If you're jealous, like that's, I wasn't jealous. I was reasonably reacting to the situation, but [00:15:00] also that if you have something that's coming up, it's not necessarily, Sort of un, unprocessed monogamy or whatever, like, you know, it's, it can be just a genuine feeling that you should pay attention to.

So yeah, some of them are based off of like my own experiences and things that I just wanted people to grasp because I know it can be very easy, especially if you're, you're new to something and you feel unsure to just kind of brush off those things. And go like, Oh, well, it doesn't matter. I'm just being jealous when it's not actually jealousy.

[00:15:29] Ellecia: Right, right. Yeah, no, I, I, I love that because it's, it seems like people often almost like gaslight themselves into not believing that there's something wrong or something bad happening in the like name or shame or guilt of feeling jealous. Right? And it's like, actually, like, jealousy is a thing that it's an emotional experience and it might be there for a real 

[00:15:55] Lola Phoenix: reason.

Yeah. You can be jealous for a very valid [00:16:00] reason, and just because you're jealous also doesn't mean that that's wrong. Like, sometimes it's a sign that you're not getting the things that you need, and it's, it can be really, really painful to, like, if you want something from your partner, and your partner's not giving that, and you decide, okay, well, I don't want to leave, so I just accept the fact that this partner can't provide that for me, and I accept the price of admission, as Dan Savage says.

And then you see them giving it to someone else and you're like, hold on a minute, like, wait, like you're going to experience a huge amount of jealousy and that's totally called for. It's not that jealousy is, you know, always this negative thing that's never called for. Sometimes it's very called for.

[00:16:37] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, have you always been non monogamous or did you like, Go from monogamy to non monogamy? 

[00:16:49] Lola Phoenix: It's really interesting because I when I was younger I was very strange. I feel like I like I knew about like marriage and divorce and things like [00:17:00] that. Um, and technically I don't want to say that like my parents were non monogamous cause they weren't.

It was a weird situation where like my, my, like they weren't really together. So it didn't really, you know, but I remember like when I started liking one celebrity and stopped liking another celebrity, writing like divorce papers between me and that celebrity and then marriage papers and then custody papers for my.

Like baby dolls is very strange. Um, I feel like I was always, you know, my attraction to other people, you know, I, I kind of a little bit. On the demisexual, graysexual. I don't tend to get attracted to people very often. So what I find a lot in, in non monogamy is a lot, there are a lot of people who are just like, I just feel so attracted to so many people and that's, it's not necessarily the case for me, but I think where I sort of had a bit of an inkling was in one of my relationships, my first relationship, it was, um, [00:18:00] it was a great relationship, like it's so much, I grew so much in it, but it was an online relationship and it was with somebody who lived in Australia and.

I was very, very self conscious about it because tons of people, I mean, this was early in the days of like, you know, now online relationships are pretty typical, but back in those, that day, it was like, if you've never met them, you don't know them, you don't, you can't love them. So I was very much in the idea of like, no, I love this person and no one's going to tell me otherwise.

And whilst I was in that relationship and I felt that strongly about them, I felt myself being attracted to other people. And that was the kind of first time I, you know, no one was going to tell me I didn't love my partner. And then I was like, okay, well I can be attracted to other people. I'm still really love my partner because that was never a question.

And it, it, it didn't end up, I mean, it was when I was like 18 and going to uni. And so it was And we promised that we'd, uh, we would wait until he could come and visit me. You know, [00:19:00] that was the whole thing. Like we did the, we'll be exclusive. Um, and then when he said like, Oh, I don't know if I could do this exclusivity anymore.

I kind of continued mentally on as if we were still in a relationship. I was like, that's fine. Technically I was broken up with. But I was just like, ah, it's okay. We can't be exclusive anymore. I don't, I don't care. And then he would like told me, oh, I found, uh, I found a girlfriend here. I was like, well, that's fine.

Like, I really didn't genuinely mind. And that in a way worked against me because I was just like, yeah, whatever. Like, yeah. You know, I was waking up at like 3am to see if he was, cause he was in Australia. So the time difference. I was waking up at 3am to check and see if he was online. I was like, yeah, whatever.

I don't, I don't mind. And then it was when he told me like, Oh, I can't say I love you anymore because it's making me feel bad. Cause I'm, I'm actually. You know, falling for this other person. That was the moment that hit me in the face, like a ton of bricks. And I was like, Oh God. And like started, you know, that was when I got really mad at him and explained like, yeah, so I think that was [00:20:00] an interesting thing.

I think it's, it's less been that I have a super huge desire to date loads of people and more of that. I'm just like, Oh, I don't, I don't mind. Like it's, it doesn't bother me. And over time, like I felt as I, when I came out as bi as well, you know, and then I was like, well, monogamy isn't really going to work because like, I started, there was a guy who I spoke to, I was interested in, and I was eventually going to move to the UK.

Um, but he wanted to be monogamous and he was like, well, I'm, I'm never going to be interested in any kind of, cause I was like, okay, well maybe threesome or like, you know, like maybe like I'm bisexual, but I've never dated a woman and you know, I would like to have that opportunity and he was like, no, that's never going to happen.

So I was like, oh, well then maybe we don't get together, you know, like, And eventually I kind of. Came to the conclusion, like, okay, this is an option because I was super interested in human sexuality. And I was listening to a lot of podcasts, like the concept of swinging was first kind of introduced. And then the concept of not the polyamory fit more because I was less necessarily [00:21:00] interested in the swing, swinging aspect and more interested in the relationship.

So I, I, I don't, I wouldn't say that I'm like, I don't know as that I necessarily identify as being inherently non monogamous, but I feel like for me. Definitely traditional monogamy where like you're expected to pretend like your part your partner is the only one that you're ever attracted to. I feel like that almost erases my identity and being attracted to more than one type of person and more than one gender.

Like I, I don't want to pretend like I'm straight, essentially, if I'm dating a man or pretend like I'm a lesbian if I'm dating a woman or however those configurations end up. And I also, now it's really weird. Like first, when I was really interested in non monogamy, it was because I wanted a big family and I wanted like multiple parents and I wanted to like seven children and a lot.

And now I'm like, I'm, I don't want any children at all. Um, and I'm much more of a solo polyam person. Like I, I like being by myself and I like that independence. So I think I definitely couldn't go back to a super [00:22:00] traditional monogamy and I don't really want to live with anyone, which is typically what people, even if they don't get married, like that's the thing that they end up doing.

Um, so I think like, yeah, I don't know, is that traditional monogamy would ever work for me. And I would much rather have the freedom and autonomy. Mostly it's, it's just been, you know, I've said, you know, when, in every 10 years precisely when the planets line ever so nicely, and I'm attracted to someone and they're attracted to me, I would like the opportunity to see where that goes.

And that's been my main, like, that's my anchor, my main motivation for being interested in it. But like also having the personal autonomy, like that's really, really important for me. So, so yeah, it's, it's never, it's never been a kind of thing where I've felt like, Oh, this is. This is how I naturally am.

It's just more or less, you know, and I don't, I don't necessarily think that that always comes from a good place necessarily. Um, like I, I, there's something I can go into that, uh, in a bit, in a bit, but like basically to answer your question without rambling a bit more, [00:23:00] um, I'm not, nah, I wouldn't say it's an inherent part of who I am, but like, I couldn't see myself being traditionally monogamous at all at this point.

[00:23:08] Ellecia: Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes a ton of sense. Same. Like I, you know, like I have. a family and a husband and kids and a roommate and multiple partners. I could never go back. I absolutely could not go back to the traditional monogamous structure. I mean, I could wind up monogamous just out of circumstance, but right, but not like monogamous out of like, this is our agreement.

[00:23:34] Lola Phoenix: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. 

[00:23:37] Ellecia: And I'm 

[00:23:38] Lola Phoenix: hoping that monogamy is changing a little bit as well, and that people are moving out of the idea of like, Because I don't think that's good for monogamous people, the sort of false idea that you're only ever attracted to this one person. I think that that doesn't lead to good places.

So I am hoping that, I do think monogamy is shifting a little bit more and people are, are less, you know, held to the sort of traditional, what we would [00:24:00] call traditional, I don't know if it's actually traditional, but what, what we perceive as the traditional concept of, of monogamy. I'm, I'm hoping people are moving a little bit away from the more unhealthier aspects of it.

[00:24:10] Ellecia: Absolutely. Yeah. Monogamy is a like intentional choice where you talk about all the things and not make assumptions. Uh, yeah, totally. Totally. There's lots of reasons for it. Um, you mentioned, um, you mentioned a thing, uh, that I wanted to ask you about. No worries.

Anchor. And, and in the introduction of the Non Monogamy Journal, um, you talk about finding your anchor. Could you talk a little bit about what that is? 

[00:24:53] Lola Phoenix: Yeah. Um, so the anchor is kind of a concept that I came up with because I think [00:25:00] that if you're interested in opening a relationship or you're interested in non monogamy, either way, I think most people I'd say most people come to, come at non monogamy when they're already in a relationship, like that's, tends to be the, the typical track.

I think that it's, it's difficult to find, but I really, really feel like You need to find a reason for being interested in non monogamy that isn't keeping your current relationship the same exact way it is. Um, and I, and I think it's hard for people, right? Because if their partner comes to them and says, I want to open our relationship, they're going to be motivated to say yes, because they don't want to lose that person.

And I don't think that's a bad motivation, but I do think, and I, I try to explain to people That keeping your relationship isn't, isn't really an option when, if you're opening it, because your relationship is fundamentally going to change. It's like trying to say yes to a, uh, in person relationship when it's shifting to long distance.

Like it's, it's, it's not that you don't love each other. It's that, [00:26:00] that's the structure, the physical structure of the way you spend time is going to change in a really big way, and I think that if you want a reason, if you want something to hold on to. Having an anchor, having a reason why you're interested in it.

Even if it's just like, Oh, I'd like to have sex with more people. That's fine. It's perfectly fine anchor. If it's, I say, if it's, you know, you like to have your alone time. That's a perfectly fine anchor. If it's that you want to date other people, that's a fine anchor. It's about why am I personally motivated?

And in a, in a reason that doesn't have to do with saving this relationship. And I think that's really important because. During times when you're like, Oh, why am I, why is this happening? Like, you're going to have some emotional ups and downs. And I know my book is like called the anxious person's guide.

I think that anxiety is actually a pretty normal reaction for most people to their relationship opening. Um, and I don't think that you necessarily have to be an anxious person to be super anxious when that's happening. 

[00:26:58] Ellecia: Yeah. 

[00:26:58] Lola Phoenix: So you're going to [00:27:00] have these ups and downs. You're going to have this fear.

You're going to have this, you know, I always talk about like the first night that your partner spends. With someone else or out on a date, you're probably going to feel like shit. Like you're going to feel terrible. Um, maybe you won't, but I think you are, you probably are. Um, because you're rebuilding those foundations of trust.

You have to see that they come back to you mentally. You've been in a monocentric society your whole life. That's telling you this is bad and you're not just going to be able to think your way out of it. Like it's, it's, their emotions are going to happen. And I think when you're kind of stuck in that, like tumultuous sea of like, Remembering that there's a personal reason that's just for you can really, really ground you because you can be like, okay, I'm doing, I know I'm doing this for a reason.

It's kind of the same if you're having any major lifestyle change. You know, if you're going to, if you're getting a PhD, like that's stressful as hell. When you're in the middle of trying to figure out the exams or trying, you know, knowing, okay, I, I'm doing this for a reason is, is really important. And I think we all have [00:28:00] anchors in different, during different life scenarios, but I think it's so culturally scripted in a lot of ways that we don't, we don't think, we don't think of it as an anchor.

So, like, if your kids is a big example, like having kids is. Not, not a picnic. There are definitely ups and downs. There are definitely emotionally trying moments. And it's kind of easy to see when a kid's right in front of you, maybe sometimes when it's really difficult, not so easy, but it's easy to see, like.

This is why I'm doing it because I love my kid. And I had a kid for a reason, maybe I don't speak for everyone's situation, but you know, you have a personal reason that isn't that, you know, this child will remain a baby for the rest of their life, you know, like you have a reason beyond that. And so, yeah, I, I, I wanted people to think of.

When they're, when they're starting out, when they're deciding if this for me, and it might not be something they know right away. Like it might take a little bit of practice, but I think it can be much more helpful because I think if you, if you, the only reason you're trying this is to keep your relationship the same way it is.[00:29:00] 

It's just not going to work because it's just not going to be the same. I tell people like you are going to get less time with your partner. Fundamentally, like regardless of what style of nominogamy you practice, regardless of the way you decide to do it, fundamentally you will have less time with them.

And so you're going to have to, you have to be okay with that first. But then if there's a personal reason why you're okay with that, like, okay, I like spending the time on my own. I'll have this time to pursue my own stuff. Okay. Whatever it is, I think it's, it's really important to have. Cause I, I think the reason that people tend to think of is, oh, I'll save the relationship.

And even though that's not a bad motivation, it's not a very good reason and it's going to fail you during those intense moments. Because if you're in that intense moment and you're like, Oh, I'm trying to save my relationship, but they're out with somebody else. Like I don't, I fundamentally, I just don't think that works in your brain.

I think you're going to go, well, they're out with someone else. So that's not working, you know? 

[00:29:53] Ellecia: Uh huh. Yeah, I agree. A hundred percent. I call it the North star. But that, like, thing [00:30:00] that makes it worth going through all the hard stuff. Um, I, I tell the story all the time on my, on the show. Um, but I was very, very, um, jealous and just really had a hard time deconditioning from just all of these monogamous ideas.

And also every time my partner was like, we could close up, we could be monogamous. I was like, hell no. That is the opposite of what I want. I want to get through this. I want to get to the other side of it so I can have all the fun. Like, I want to keep doing this work. Like, I had a reason to go through terrible feelings.

[00:30:35] Lola Phoenix: And I think you, you bring up such a good point because that's another aspect of having an anchor that's really important is that there are a lot of times when people, it gets really difficult and people like, we'll just close it. We'll just close it. And it's just like, You need to go through the situation and the more, the more you avoid, like my experience with anxiety, at least when I'd like, I've had really bad anxiety, like panic attacks every night, serious anxiety, the more the, you give [00:31:00] anxiety an inch and it will take a mile.

The more you avoid the situation, the more, like the more strength you give it over you, the more power you give it over you. And you also can't work on the situation. Um, If you're not in the situation, like you can't, you can't, you can think about it and theorize it all you want, but you have to actually go through the situation in order to show yourself like, okay, I survived.

I'm fine. It's not the end of the world. We're going to be okay. Like there isn't a shortcut through that, 

[00:31:28] Ellecia: unfortunately. Absolutely. Absolutely. A hundred percent. I work with a lot of people who are like, yeah, in theory, I've got this down. And then, you know, shit hits the fan and they're like, oh, I'm right back where we started.

I always, I, I, 

[00:31:45] Lola Phoenix: I always try to encourage people, like, expect yourself to feel bad. Because the worst comes to worst, if you don't feel bad, that's great. But like, expect yourself to feel bad and not because it is bad, but because, you know, it's, it's a new emotional experience. You're rebuilding, like, expect [00:32:00] yourself to feel difficult, but everybody really wants this to like work out perfectly and to never have any bad emotions.

And I think it's, it's a little silly in some ways, like, not because, not that they're silly to think about, but I try to tell them, like, if you were going bungee, bungee jumping, you would never expect yourself to be like, Oh, I'm gonna, I'm not going to be afraid at all. Like, if you were shitting your pants on the air, or on, like, looking over the side of the cliff, you'd be like, okay, I'm, you know, you would expect yourself to be afraid.

And in that, in that regard, allowing yourself permission to have those feelings. I wouldn't go bungee jumping, but, you know, allowing yourself to have those feelings makes it a little bit easier. But if you tell yourself like, I'm, I've read all the things, I'm going to be fine. I'm not going to have, like, I think it just makes it so much worse because you're not pushing up a boulder up a hill.

Like it feels that way. And I used to envision my anxiety as that, like I was always pushing up a boulder up a hill and if I had a panic attack, it meant it rolled down and I'd failed. And I started to think about in context of like, if I get a cold, [00:33:00] does that mean I failed? No, I just have a cold. So if you have emotions, it doesn't mean you've failed.

It doesn't mean you've backtracked. You're just a human. Like, I feel like so much of my column and sometimes my advice is just giving people permission to have feelings. 

[00:33:14] Ellecia: Yup, dig that. Yeah. Your emotional immune system is weakened. Yeah.

That's amazing. Um, you had in, in the Anxious Persons Guide, you talk about a self care emergency protocol, and I'm curious what. Like, what does that entail, or what are some important pieces of that that people should have? I think 

[00:33:44] Lola Phoenix: this is part of that kind of mental preparedness of like expecting yourself to feel a little crap.

And I feel like the advice that people are often given in a lot of communities is like, okay, the first time that your partner is out on a date, you know, take yourself out on a date night or like meet up with friends. [00:34:00] And sometimes it's not always possible to like align things perfectly. Like, yes, it would be great.

And I think people play polyamory chickens sometimes and like, Who gets the first date and go like, and your, your schedules are never going to always sync up, like you're never going to have a first date on the same night. Oh, perfect. Like that's just not going to happen. And maybe your friends are busy.

Like you're not like as much as I think that advice isn't bad. Like, yeah, if you can hang out with friends and distract yourself, perfect, wonderful. But I don't think that that's always the case. And I do think that. Especially when you're just starting out, like the first couple of times, you are going to feel a little bit crap.

It's not going to feel great. And also I think there's an element of avoidance, even with hanging out with friends, like you're avoiding that kind of emotional ups and downs. So I think like having a self care kind of, Kit of like, okay, what do I do? If I feel really crap, do I have things put away? Like, you know, whether it's a coloring book or whether it's, this is what I do when I [00:35:00] feel bad, or this is who I can talk to.

This is who I can call. And making sure, cause I think when you're in the moment, especially if you have any kind of trauma around being a burden to anybody, right? Like you don't really always like feel like you can reach out. You may have tons of friends. But you may not feel like you can reach out to them.

So I think preparing that ahead of time and thinking about, okay, who will I feel comfortable and even asking ahead of time, you can always ask that of friends and be like, Hey, do you have, can I call you when I'm feeling bad? You know, I don't think the idea of like giving yourself a date is necessarily bad.

Like if you have comforting movies, if you have comforting things, but I think it's about thinking, putting yourself in those situations ahead of time, mentally. and thinking about how would I then get help? Because I think sometimes, like I said, it's the newness of the situation where you don't really think about it.

And I think especially for people who just think that, oh, I'll be able to research myself out of feelings, [00:36:00] the, the sort of bricks hit even harder in that situation because you don't, like, the research that you can sometimes do isn't around, what will I do if I feel bad? It's just like, I'm just not going to feel bad, you know, because I'm, I'm red.

I'm just not going to feel bad. So I want to get people just even thinking of, if I do feel bad, here's what I'm going to do. Cause I think even just having that thought process ahead of time helps out so, so much. And, and I think, yeah, it's, it doesn't, it may not work. Like you still may feel crap, but at least you've thought about it.

And at least you've had a moment to think about like, okay, if I feel crap, this is what I'm going to do. And. I think that at least having it also will put a little bit of ease on yourself because then you're hopefully spending time taking care of yourself instead of punishing yourself. for feet having feelings.

Cause I've been in so many situations where I just thought I don't want to have feelings. So I'm going to sit here and punish myself for having them instead of actually addressing them and thinking that's addressing them. Like I've been [00:37:00] in, in, in a lot of, you know, where I've been like, this is me addressing it, punishing myself for having it.

That's not addressing it either. Right. Yeah. 

[00:37:07] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I always tell, excuse me. I always tell people to, um, make their plan and then write it all down because when you're like. In it, when you're having like these big activated feelings, it's hard to remember what your plan was or what you were going to do to stay busy and take care of yourself.

So I'm like, write it all down. So you know what you can look at it and go, Oh, that's what I could do. Oh yeah. That's right. I was going to, uh, go for a walk and then embroider and then pet my cat. Like. Yeah. Like what was my 

[00:37:39] Lola Phoenix: plan? Yeah, because I mean, your brain is, when it's activated, you're not in like a learning state.

Yeah. Right. You're in, you're in an activated state. Your brain is like, oh my God, this is a bad, I mean, in monogamy, this would be a bad situation. Your partner, being out with somebody else would be a really bad situation. So your brain is going like, wait a [00:38:00] minute, this is bad. We're supposed to freak out right now.

Right. And you're, you have to kind of. Sit for a moment and, and sit in those feelings a little bit and deal with that and then see and come out the other end and go, okay, I survived, you know, I mean, it is, it will be a bad thing and, and a difficult thing for people. if they do end up having a partner that breaks up with them or that, you know, does dump them for somebody else, which can happen, like, but that can happen in any relationship.

There's, you know, being monogamous doesn't protect you from bad things happening, you know, it's not going to prevent someone from leaving you. But I think, you know, you just have to kind of build that trust within yourself. And if you have those tools, that also, I think, tells you, I've got me. You know, and, and building that trust with yourself really, really helps you deal with anything else coming down the way.

[00:38:48] Ellecia: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Totally. I'm curious is if you have a, um, most [00:39:00] memorable or standout or awkward or weird, um, like question or piece of advice someone has looked for. 

[00:39:09] Lola Phoenix: You know, the things that have always kind of taken me aback have been things that have made me kind of sad.

And that's been situations that haven't been about non monogamy. You know, it's just been a situation where clearly this person is being mistreated. And non monogamy is part of that because they're being asked to be okay with their partner being with other people. But that's not really the problem. The problem is like they're, they're, they're being mistreated.

And that's, those are the situations that always take me aback and make me go, oof, ouch. Um, I think there was one, I can't remember it exactly. I think that it was called replacement girlfriend or something in my column or on my podcast. Um, and it was a situation where somebody wrote me and I think that they said that they had like, basically they, they, they had cancer [00:40:00] and it was terminal.

Um, and they were, their partner was not really, you know, Like asking them to be okay with an open relationship. And they felt like they were just auditioning for their replacement. Um, and it, from the sound of it, obviously when I get a letter, I only get one side of the story. Right. So I don't necessarily know, but from the sound of it, it just sounded like their partner was being so unsupportive.

And that was what really made me sad because they were asking me, how do I be okay with this? Cause I don't want to dump them. I might, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm terminal and how do I be okay with this? And that's been like the situations that really kind of hit me where, and there was one actually as well that I recently, uh, published called Trapped in a where it was literally like a situation where somebody Moved in with, with some people very, like after dating for one month, like very fast, they had no job, they had kids and they were basically being used as a live in babysitter.

And they're like, how do I be okay with being in a throuple? And I'm like, the throuple [00:41:00] is not the issue here. The Iranian yogurt is not the issue here. Like it's, it's like, you're being mistreated. Like those are the things that really, cause it's always the people who really want to be okay with non monogamy and they're not writing to me because they think they're in a bad relationship.

They're writing to me because they want to be okay with being non monogamist. And I'm like, you shouldn't be okay with this relationship, period. Non monogamy is not the problem here. Like those are, those are the situations that really made me go oof. Cause it's just, it's, it's, it's so sad and I, I wish the best for them.

And I hope that I've helped them, you know, but they really genuinely need sometimes like, I mean, I'm not a therapist. I don't know if I can't diagnose anyone, but you know, I think that they probably need a better help than I can give them. So yeah, those are the ones that really kind of hit me like, I, I feel really bad for them.

Mm hmm. 

[00:41:48] Ellecia: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, no, that's, that's relatable. Those are, those are the hardest ones for me. I'm like, you, you. I mean, we can talk all day long about non monogamy, but that is not the issue. [00:42:00] Yeah. You don't need a different agreement. 

[00:42:04] Lola Phoenix: Yeah. You don't need to overcome your monogamous tendencies. You like, yes, there is a whole side of this that is emotional management that is getting, you know, but that's within the context of a healthy relationship and you don't have that.

[00:42:19] Ellecia: Yes. 

[00:42:19] Lola Phoenix: So it's not going to work. I could give you the best tips and advice for managing your emotions, but that's not going to fix the fact that you're not being treated well. That, 

[00:42:29] Ellecia: that, yeah. Oh, um, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share? 

[00:42:39] Lola Phoenix: Um, that's a good 

[00:42:40] Ellecia: question. 

[00:42:43] Lola Phoenix: I think first and foremost, I think that.

What I hope that people get out of the journal, at least, is just that, you know, they can do it on their own, they can do it with partners and stuff like that. I'm very much hoping that it allows them to [00:43:00] come up with better agreements with their partners or, or feel empowered to know what to ask for from other people.

Because I think. Like I said, so, so many times things like this come up and if they've already happened, you trying to negotiate your boundaries around a situation that's already happened is sometimes really, really tricky. And, and so I'm really hoping that it allows people to kind of think about these things, work through them, maybe talk with them with a partner.

Cause I, I have been in situations where. I ha, you know, I've been in relationships and I don't want to end those relationships, but situate, things have happened that I'm like, Ooh, would I have agreed to this relationship if I had known this beforehand? Maybe not. So I, I'm hoping that that is the case. And I think mostly I just want people to know that like, it's very normal to have up and down feelings.

Like it's, it's very, very normal to be anxious about stuff. It's very, very normal to not have any idea what to do. I am really, really hoping, I'm trying to put together a course [00:44:00] actually, because I feel like the advice everyone gets is just read, read, read. And I've written books, so I'm not going to tell you not to read.

That would be a stupid advice, but I think that there are very practical things that people can put in place right away when they both know that they would like, generally, like I said, generally, it's two people opening up, but even so, I think they're very practical things people can put in place and what I'm hoping to do is, is put together a course that Helps them put those things in place right away.

They can still read. I still think it's important to read things and get to know concepts and explore things. And, and some of this stuff is going to take time anyway, but I really, really hope to have that so that people can go, okay, what can we do now to make things a little bit easier? Cause I think waiting six months to do all the reading and staying in basically in a monogamous relationship while doing that can sometimes make things even harder.

down the line. So, so that's what I'm hoping that, that to be able to put together and, and [00:45:00] this year, hopefully that's the goal. So, yeah. 

[00:45:02] Ellecia: Yeah. Brilliant. I love that. Um, how can people find you and your books? 

[00:45:09] Lola Phoenix: Um, you can go to nominogamyhelp. com. All my stuff is on there. Um, I do have a, uh, I should have a thing that tells you that if you sign up to my newsletter, you can get a discount on the books.

Um, if I don't now, now, you know, um, and if I, if I do put the, I should have a pop up, but you know, I don't know how it, how it works all the time. Um, I should have as well, when my course does come out, I should have more information on there, but like, yeah, you can find, you know, The podcast and, and all the columns there.

I do have like, I put, put the podcast out on, I think all the platforms that it can be out. Um, then, uh, the Anxious Guide is also an audio book. Um, and I'm hoping that, I mean, I don't think the journal will become an audio book cause it's not, it's not really an audio book style. It's more of a sit down and writes type of thing.

But, um, but yeah, uh, you can find everything there. And, um, I am on most, I [00:46:00] think I'm on. X still, although I'm not really posting very much on there. Um, and then I'm on Instagram and TikTok as well. So yeah, you can find me on, on at, um, nonmonogamyhelp and nonmonohelp on TikTok. 

[00:46:13] Ellecia: Amazing. 

[00:46:13] Lola Phoenix: Amazing. 

[00:46:14] Ellecia: And of course I'll put all that in the show notes so people can just like click on things.

Um, yeah. One more question, right? Exactly. And one more question. And, um, this is, uh, not on the, um, regular podcast, but is for our Patreon supporters at patreon. com slash not monogamous and it's called just the tip and, and it's what is your best or favorite sex tip that you would offer the listeners?

I love that. That's so good. Thank you. That's so good. Amazing. Thank you so much [00:47:00] for, um, for coming on. This has been delightful. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.