Unmasking Ashley Madison: Why People Cheat & What It Reveals About Modern Relationships, Ep. 105

When I was invited to interview someone from Ashley Madison, I hesitated. My first instinct was judgment — but then I realized, that’s the same kind of stigma people apply to non-monogamy all the time.

This powerful conversation with Paul Keable, Chief Strategy Officer at Ashley Madison, dives deep into the complex, often misunderstood world of infidelity, emotional disconnection, and unmet needs in long-term relationships.

🔍 This episode is NOT about promoting cheating — it’s about understanding why it happens.

🔑 What We Cover in This Episode:

💔 Why People Cheat:
The surprising (and often deeply emotional) reasons people seek connection outside their marriage — and it’s not always about sex.

🧠 Emotional vs. Physical Needs:
Paul shares data from Ashley Madison showing that over 60% of women on the platform report being in sexless or orgasm-less relationships, while many men are searching for emotional validation more than physical release.

📖 The Infidelity Education Gap:
How inadequate sex education and cultural silence around pleasure leave many people feeling unfulfilled and unable to communicate their needs.

❤️ Compassionate Affairs & the Grey Area of Cheating:
Can infidelity actually save a marriage? We explore the idea of "compassionate affairs" and what happens when people cheat because they don’t want to leave — they just want to feel alive again.

😶‍🌫️ Shame, Secrecy & Communication Breakdown:
How fear of judgment keeps people quiet — and how creating space for honest conversations can prevent betrayal before it happens.

🎧 Listen If You’re Curious About:

• Why infidelity happens — even in loving marriages
• How modern relationships are evolving
• The overlap between non-monogamy, cheating, and unspoken desires
• What it really takes to build lasting intimacy

👂 Whether you're monogamous, non-monogamous, or just asking bigger questions about love and desire — this episode is for you.

👍 Like, comment, and subscribe for more raw, real conversations about modern relationships, non-monogamy, and emotional truth.

🧡 Ready to explore your own desires with less shame and more clarity? Work with me at www.elleciapaine.com.

https://elleciapaine.com/call

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ellecia: Today's episode is one that I never thought I'd be recording, and not because the topic isn't relevant, but because of the immediate reaction I had when it was offered to me. And I'll share about that moment, right when the, uh, interview starts and what that revealed about my own biases. This conversation with Paul Keable, the Chief Strategy Officer at Ashley Madison.

Yeah, that Ashley Madison. This isn't about endorsing cheating. Okay. I wanna be clear on that. This is about pulling back the curtain on the reasons that people seek connection outside of their relationships. What that tells us about modern love, unmet needs, emotional disconnection. And the deeply human desire to feel seen and fulfilled.

So Paul and I get into sex education gaps, emotional validation, jealousy, communication, the data and the stats that Ashley Madison has to share on non-monogamy, both ethical and otherwise, and even how [00:01:00] affairs, in some cases have helped people become better partners. It's not black and white guys. And that's kind of what makes it so worth talking about.

If you've ever struggled to ask for what you need or if you're curious about the realities behind infidelities, if you are in a relationship that's monogamous or non monogamous, this episode is definitely gonna give you something to think about. Let's go. There we go. I did it. I found it amazing. Awesome.

Um, again, thank you so much for coming on. Nope, we're not monogamous. Uh, um, I want to, before, before we like, dig into everything, I wanna share, something that feels really important to me is that when I got the email, um, offered this, this interview, I was like at, at first I was like, no, that's not something I wanna do.

And then I was like, wait a minute. What are you doing, [00:02:00] Ellecia? This sounds like the kind of judgment people, uh, apply to you for being openly non-monogamous. Maybe I should look at that. So I'm, I'm actually, I'm really happy to have the opportunity to, uh, you know, have like a real conversation about, uh, non-monogamy, infidelity commitment relationships and, and what all of that looks like.

[00:02:22] Paul Keable: Today. Well, I really appreciate, uh, you know, you having me on Ellecia, so thank you. And the fact that, you know, you took a little self-reflection there because I, I, I understand, you know, talking to the people at Ashley Madison when you are living an open, non-monogamous life, I. Versus what we offer. You know, I understand the, the, you know, the initial reaction.

That's what most people have when it comes to our business. And so what I'm really here to do is not convince anybody to sign up or convince 'em that we're a great company, but we are. I'm really here just to, you know, talk about what's actually happening and answer a lot of the questions that people tend to have about our space, about our members, and what's really happening in the world when [00:03:00] it comes to, you know, what we describe as, uh, undisclosed nony.

[00:03:06] Ellecia: Undisclosed non-monogamy. I like that. Um, how, uh, so yeah. Okay. So how, how would you, describe Ashley Madison? Like, is it a non-monogamous dating site? Is it a place for people seeking affairs? Like, like what exactly is the platform? 

[00:03:25] Paul Keable: So, you know, if we go back to our origin stories, we launched in 2002, and at the time our founder had read reports that.

Online dating industry was taking off the, the traditional dating sites, the e harmonies of the world that matches the world were really gaining a lot of momentum. Yet he saw a report that set up to 30% of the profiles were in fact married people pretending to be single. And so that was the proverbial light bulb moment that said, how, how about we create a space where those individuals can find others who are in the same situation, be a little bit more honest and transparent.

Ironically [00:04:00] speaking. Um, and take them outta the places where they shouldn't be having these types of engagements. And thus was born Ashley Madison. And yes, our tagline is Still Life is Short Habit Affairs. So we do primarily market to those who are seeking something outside of their, um, monogamous relationships, their marriage.

Now I would. Tell you, as of right now, we've got internal data that would show us that roughly 20% of the membership would identify as disclosed, non-monogamous, meaning their partners are aware and or participating in their activities. Though that clearly indicates that the vast majority of people are looking for a more traditional, uh, adulterous in, you know, uh, fan.

[00:04:42] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That was, that was something I was really curious about is if there was a shift in, uh, in like what people were looking for and how they were defining what they were doing. Um, yeah, it is, 

[00:04:55] Paul Keable: and and I think the reason for that, just to give a little bit of context to it, [00:05:00] is I. We typically do market to a slightly older audience north of 35, let's say, compared to a lot of the more traditional dating apps.

And if you know much about the world of disclosed nom monogamy, whether it's polyamory, the lifestyle, open relationships, you will know that the data shows that the majority of these relationships, um, the, the initiative was taken by the female in the, in the, in the relationship. It's often women. Who retire monogamy and ask, you know, to see if there's an opportunity to explore non-monogamy.

But in doing so, at that stage of life, particularly if you have career and kids and you know, intertwined families, you're not really super excited about everyone knowing about your business. And so the discretion that we offer to give people the capacity to sort of dip their toes, figure out how far they want to go, um, is why I think our membership is evolving.

[00:05:53] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's been the most like surprising or unexpected reason people give for joining [00:06:00] Ashley Madison? 

[00:06:01] Paul Keable: Well, that's, that's one of the things that I think people fail to understand about, you know, the, the, the original aspects of Ashley Madison. Everybody assumes because it's fair based, that it's the Lius man who's just, you know, has no moral or ethic and he's just sleeping with as many women as he possibly can because he can't.

And while I'm certain that individual or individuals like that are using our site. There is a range of affairs. And so an example for that, just to give a little, you know, background to it, is something we'd call a compassionate affair. We had a member, she, uh, at the point where she signed up, she was in her late fifties.

She was a lawyer. She was in good standing in her community, her industry, but unfortunately her husband was slightly older than her, had fallen into all early onset Alzheimer's and. She ultimately just was becoming his caretaker, which she was devoted to doing. So she loved this man and she had no intention of bleeding and divorcing him, but that left her.

Without outlet for her own, you know, intimate [00:07:00] needs. And that's, you know, it's a huge burden to carry. And she couldn't date traditionally. She couldn't go into, you know, a public setting with an individual in, in the manner which was going to be satisfying for her. So she chose Ashley Madison and she found, you know, a, a companion that was able to fulfill all those needs, which enabled her to go back to be, uh, the, the wife.

She needed to be the wife, she wanted to be. Without a lot of the frustrations that she was carrying. And I think the other part, I think on a broader scale that I found a little bit surprising that I've been with the company now for more than 10 years is I've spoken to so many members over the years, and so many women particularly will come to me and say, because of my affair, I'm a better lover, mother and wife.

And I think a lot of people will find that surprising, but there's a lot of reasons and rationales around that, and so we can dig into that. 

[00:07:49] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm really curious about that. I think. I, I wind up working with a lot of people, not a lot, but, but I've had several clients who are in similar [00:08:00] positions where like being openly non-monogamous just won't work for their life.

And, and they have like really deep reasons that, you know, they aren't just looking to like get off. Like they have really deep reasons why they're doing it and those are the things they're, they're looking to explore. So, so I find that that really interesting. Yeah. And you know, one of the things. Go ahead.

Go ahead. No, you, you first. 

[00:08:26] Paul Keable: Okay. So thank you. One of the things that I do actually love about my job is if you are in the business of studying modern monogamy relationships and infidelity, it's a very difficult subject matter because going to a general population survey, um. People lie. People lie to themselves and it's hard to get to, you know, some really insightful truths.

And so we have researchers from around the world who have come to us say, I really wanna dive a little bit deeper. I wanna get into the insights around people who she, for this, you know, lack of a better term. [00:09:00] And if you've already signed up to Ashley Madison, you know, you've given some indication as two.

You know, the type of individual or the type of activity you're looking for. And we actually had a researcher from the University of Missouri, Dr. Ellecia Walker, come to us and she wanted to study the rationales around why women cheat versus why men. And it really, the results really flipped the script in terms of what people think is happening.

80% of the women on Asie Madison in this study were in sexless, orgasm, less marriages, and they would tell you. They still love their spouse. They love their family, they love their life. They weren't looking to flip it all upside down because traditional advice is compromise. You know, just deal with not getting what you want or choose divorce, which is the let's blow it all to hell.

Options, costly. And if you have kids, and if you love your spouse, you love everything, uh, out there, and you've had conversations and your spouse is unable to or willing to fulfill, what, what's missing? You know, it doesn't leave you a lot of [00:10:00] options. And suddenly we became a third path where women are outsourcing their intimate needs via Ashley Madison.

And the male side, I think, really pushes people's, uh, belief systems because the, the majority of men in this study were seeking emotional validation. And that was the rationale for the affairs. And now if you, you know. Delve enough into this space. And, and there's an old sort of story that, you know, was rung around for years where, um, escort sex workers would often talk about how men would hire them just to talk.

[00:10:34] Ellecia: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:34] Paul Keable: And people didn't believe that either. They're like, whatever, who's paying money for that? But it, when you look at this study and you listen to that anecdotal evidence, I. It's absolutely true. Men, as much as women crave that emotional affection, that emotional touch that sometimes is bereft within a relationship.

And if you think about it this way, we are trained as men to verbalize aesthetic compliments to our female partners. Oh, Ellecia, your hair looks great today. I, I really like that nose ring. [00:11:00] You know, things of that nature. Whereas we don't, you know, have that same sort of, uh. Correspondence from females to men.

Hey Paul, I really like that shirt on you. Those glasses make your eye pops. Those kind of compliments don't happen, and so you'll see men coming on. You know, while the relationship will likely manifest itself in a physical interaction, it is in fact that hey, you look desirable. You are the kind of person I think is nice, and I would like to spend time with you.

That is what men are ultimately seeking, and I think most people, you know. Don't believe that is necessarily true or fail to really consider the implications of not having those kind of words towards your male partner. 

[00:11:42] Ellecia: Absolutely. Absolutely. That makes a ton of sense to me. Also, add in that, that women are socialized to have supportive emotional networks with each other and men just aren't.

They're, they're taught to get that emotional support from women. Rather than their their buddies. [00:12:00] Correct. That makes a lot of sense. 'cause I see the same thing in my work is that usually definitely more than 50%, it's the women who are, who are looking to be more sexually fulfilled and have more, uh, variety and um, and often it's the men who are like, oh shit, this is a thing we're doing.

I thought it sounded really cool, but now I'm in my feels about it. 

[00:12:24] Paul Keable: Well it is interesting because. If you're speaking specifically to, you know, couples who decide to open up the relationship in some realm, often a a man will think initially, oh my God, this is the most exciting thing in the world because I'm gonna get to sleep with other women.

Yeah, okay, sure. But then that also means your partner is gonna sleep potentially with other men. And here's a reality. If a woman wants to sleep with a a man or more than one man, her options are going to be higher than the male. And when men get into these non-monogamous relationships, they fail to understand that.

And so [00:13:00] before you jump in, you really do need to have a lot of conversations with the department, a lot of understanding, because the, the key thing here is if you are having problems in your relationship, having a child and open your relationship and not gonna fix the problems, communication's gonna fix the problems.

So, you know, but people sometimes jump into these, you know. Solutions as they were without really thinking through the consequences. And it can lead to problems. 'cause the one aspect that people I think, fail to understand about non-monogamy, uh, writ large, is it doesn't eradicate your, your jealous feelings.

[00:13:32] Ellecia: Not at all. Those still 

[00:13:32] Paul Keable: exist. Not at all. Yeah. And, but the differe is those who successfully, you know, participate in the non monogamy world with their partner's consent and or, or participation generally. Are very communicative. They have an open platform so that they can deal with those issues. But they do arise and they do arise on a, on a, not necessarily regular basis, but they don't just come and go once in a while.

And it's because they built a, a [00:14:00] foundation of communication that they're able to entertain these, these thoughts in these spaces and. Surprisingly, and again, you know, vanilla type people don't really, um, fully grasp this yet, is that there are rules within a non monogamous relationship as there are rules in a monogamous relationship.

It's not just a free for all. I'm sure there are people who have that, you know, uh, there's anarchy as a, as a platform for non-monogamy, uh, for some people. But I think the vast majority of people in noon relationships do have, you know, a standard set of rules that works for them. 

[00:14:31] Ellecia: Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. And, and you know, and, and then a lot of like, uh, figuring out what those rules should be and, and, and, uh, which I think should happen in monogamy as well. Like, there's so much assumed that it, the relationship will be that people don't even talk about it, when really in any relationship it should be.

Let's figure out what works for each of us and, and create that. 

[00:14:55] Paul Keable: Absolutely. We actually work with a, um, marriage and sex therapist, Dr. Tammy [00:15:00] Nelson. I. She has this great concept that I really do advocate for in any type of relationship. Uh, she, she calls it the five-year monogamy contract. Uh, so she's talking to more vanilla type people, but I think it applies across the board.

Every five years you renew your monogamy contract because when you stand at the altar, you promise faith and fidelity for better or worse sickness or health, but you don't really define the nature of what monogamy means. We all agree that if I go sleep with somebody else other than my partner, that's a form of non-monogamy or cheating for the most part.

But if I, you know, watch pornography without my partner, if I masturbate with a partner, if I go to dinner with a, a member of the opposite sex without my partner, are these forms of cheating? And a lot of people will say, in fact, they are. And so if you get married at 30, who you are at 50 changes dramatically.

And you know, some people are agree, they'll have these conversations on a regular basis. They don't need to wait five years percent. The idea of having a five-year timeframe, I think is a great way to sort of envision it [00:16:00] without becoming a huge burden. But it allows time and space for you to digest. Here is who I am today, and then you have kids.

That changes. I have jobs that it changes. I have new desires and insights and thoughts. Things will change. And you have an open, you know, trusted space to have these type of conversations. A partner, you're not just springing it on them, uh, out of the blue, which, which sometimes can be very jarring to, to some people.

[00:16:23] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I resonate with that. One of the things that I've, I've learned, uh, over the course of, uh, uh, being non-monogamous and working with non-monogamous people is that like the definition of, of cheating isn't universal, right? It's whatever crosses the boundaries that, that you and your partners agree on, and I wonder.

I imagine that some of the users, um, on Ashley Madison are pro likely in relationships where those boundaries aren't clearly defined. And I wonder if that, like, ambiguity is, is what drives, is what drives people sometimes. And looking to, I, I think a lot 

[00:16:59] Paul Keable: of it is [00:17:00] unmet expectations. I think the driving force for people is unmet expectations.

And I think, but you're not wrong. I think that ambiguity is something that comes as a shock and surprise, you know, at certain points into the relationship. 'cause you, you get married or you, you, I. Partner up with somebody and you assume certain things and then suddenly, you know, you cross a bearing and you get called out on it.

You're like, I didn't act with bad intent. 'cause I didn't even think that having, you know, dinner with my ex-girlfriend was going to be a problem. Why would that be a problem? She's moved on, she's married, but we remain friends. But to some people that's an egregious breach. Yeah. Of, of the relationship pac and that sometimes can drive people to, you know, seek, um, counsel advice and comfort at a place like Asha Madison.

[00:17:48] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, I, I wonder, the, a thought that came to me was if, um, do you think that [00:18:00] infidelity can sometimes serve as like a, a catalyst for positive change in a relationship? 

[00:18:06] Paul Keable: So I'll actually, I'll refer again to Dr. Tammy Nelson here 'cause she, she has a great term for this. Um, she refers to these as can opener affairs, pe Sometimes people go in with the intent of getting caught by their spouse to force hard conversations.

And what that is all about really is often somebody, uh, one person in a relationship will go to their partner and say, I'm unsatisfied. There's something missing. Here's what's it is. Here's the specifics. This is what I want to see. Changed and the partner's either not listening is unwilling, maybe he is even unable to make the change, and then the partner will then go out and have the affair get cock and you know, intentionally say, I was very serious about that.

If you're unable to do the things I need, I will. I. Go outside this relationship to get that because it's, it's a, it's a hard line for me, but what they're saying at the same time, and I know people struggle with this, is that I love my partner. I want my partner to be the [00:19:00] person who provides all these things for me.

But if they can't, I'm not going to leave them simply because of this one thing. But I'm not going to leave the thing either. I'm going to go get it elsewhere. 

[00:19:09] Ellecia: Yeah. And 

[00:19:10] Paul Keable: this is something that people truly struggle with because think about it this way, we now ask our, uh, wife or husband. To be our best friend, our best lover, our financial partner, often our co-parent, our social, you know, experienced partner.

They, you know, like carry a huge burden on one side of shoulders. And, you know, depending on, you know, who you are in the, in the structure of your life, that could be overwhelming for somebody and they'll seek an outlet if you put too much on somebody without really defining, you know, who else can play these roles.

And comically, we do sit in a world where. We kind of embrace infidelity in a funny way, but we, we pretend it isn't real because we all have work wives and work husbands when we go to the office. But that's in fact a form of infidelity because what we're saying is, I'm not getting what I need from my partner at home, so I'm going to [00:20:00] put this on somebody else.

And in doing so, you're acknowledging that your partner can't be the be all and end all. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but when we do it with intention, I think it leads to much better outcomes. 

[00:20:14] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I, it feels like a really, really good argument that we all need more community rather than putting everything on one partner to, to meet every social need that we have as social creatures.

Definitely, definitely. 

[00:20:32] Paul Keable: And as you said, I mean, when men are not particularly Western culture, we're not geared towards. Providing that sort of emotional support to other men within our, within our, you know, our social circles. It's not part of our rhetoric. We we're frowned upon to a degree 'cause it's seen as feminine.

And I'm Canadian, Ashley Madison is a Canadian company, so we're a little bit different than our, our, our, our neighbors to the south. And you know, I watched. Culture [00:21:00] and, and trends. And America is clearly, uh, steering to the right, steering to a more conservative movement. And I know you expressed a little exhaustion with that and I can appreciate and understand that.

But decidedly, you know, the, there's a sign, if not majority, a very vocal plurality of America is going towards that space. And I think it's going to lead to more likely better business for Ashley Madison. But a lot of frustration with the relationships. 

[00:21:28] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. Both of those. Absolutely. Absolutely. That, uh, is not something that I had even like, was on my radar as, as many things are.

Ah, gosh, that's so frustrating. Uh, because like everything you're talking about, I'm like, my God, I wish relationships, like traditional relationships just already had better communication built in and more like talking about what we really want rather than having to. Uh, hide what we want or seek things in [00:22:00] weird ways.

Um, and I'm, I'm glad that there's platforms available for people to, to get their needs met in, in all the different ways. And I'm really happy to hear, um, that the, the people behind this, like you are going like, look, look, here's, here's all the things that we can offer. And, and, and doing the research or the, like, looking into.

What people's motivations are and, and what they're getting out of it. Um, that, that just, that makes me feel good about it. 

[00:22:28] Paul Keable: Yeah. Listen, I, I mean, I, at the end of the day, our business is what it is and I'm very comfortable with it because you can shut our business down tomorrow and all these affairs are still gonna take place.

We're still 

[00:22:36] Ellecia: gonna 

[00:22:37] Paul Keable: happen. Um. Yep. But, you know, we provide more insight around it. And like, there's another study that I'll, I'll reference that, uh, Dr. Ashley Thompson from the University of, uh, Minnesota. Duluth did, uh, recently, and it looked at the outcomes of affairs and roughly 30% of of the members she interviewed said that their primary relationship improved because of their affair.

And that goes back to my original statement about [00:23:00] because of an affair, some women will become a better mother, lover and wife because the stress of what's missing is alleviated. I. People can't get, so they can get up on their high horse like Mullen buddy, complain about it, say it's unethical, but here's the reality, it's happening.

So let's deal with the reality versus your morality and let's talk about how do you mitigate it if that's your real goal. Because interestingly enough, yes, we're the world's largest married G happen, and we're very proud of that. But at the same time, in in a unique way, we are the world's largest marriage counseling service.

Because if you don't want your spouse on Ashley Madison without your consensual least. Listen to us as to why these members are coming, what they're looking for, what they're getting out of their affairs. Because it's often not what you think and there's ways around that, but you do have to open yourself up to some, you know, what might be a difficult conversation.

And there's another aspect that I think goes to why women, you know, do tire of monogamy quicker than men. Why women are signing up to Asher Medicine per Dr. Walker's [00:24:00] study is in America particular, but. For the most part, Western civilization sex education is abyssal. Um, it is, you know, we started in a world, I'm Gen X, so we started a world where sa safe sex was the primary, you know, cause great.

So yeah, wear a condom, avoid STDs. Let's not have too many teenage pregnancies. Great. Now we're a world where consent is a core aspect of this education, and I have teenage boys, so I'm very happy about them. These are things we discuss quite, you know, frequently. But what we don't do, particularly parents of daughters, is we don't tell them what's good sex.

Yep. We never get in the, there's a, there's no dad out there who ever wants, you know, their daughter to know what good sex is. As a 16-year-old, and I got bad news for you, all you're doing is setting her up to have a horrible sex slice. In the future. You are, you know, training her to accept what comes versus what.

Be her niece and you're in, in, in essence, [00:25:00] facilitating her likely infidelity. Given what I just said about why women cheat and you know, there's a great anecdotal story if you know the actress Rachel Bilson, and you know, she's a, at one point, like a TRA Hollywood celebrity, as you can imagine. She's gorgeous, and she was on a podcast a few years ago talking about how she never had her first orgasm in sex until she was 30.

So here's a woman who had access to the most. Best looking, affluent, wealthy, attractive men who were all vying for her attention. And I'm unsure whomever she dated was probably wonderful people, but yet still, she didn't even know her body well enough. How to either communicate or achieve an orgasm through sex till 30.

That's so sad and depressing. So how are you know the average person going to access that or know about that if we're not communicating these things to people and we as a culture are just not comfortable? And like I said, I said before. America's going in a way that is going to suppress even a lot of the things we've already made, you know, inroads on, you might see [00:26:00] consent go away.

That's a different story. Um, and, and, and all of these things lead to people having unmet expectations when they do get into a long-term relationship, if not a marriage. And for, for us, you know, sadly, maybe it means our business is gonna continue. We sign up hundreds of thousands of people a month for a reason, and we're not going to wait.

[00:26:22] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah, uh, that makes so much sense. I recently watched an interview with, um, the author of clt, I think it's Lori Minz, Dr. Lori Minz, and she was talking about, um, in her research she was finding, um, women in, in college, but also up into their thirties, like 80% of them are something outrageous. Were not having orgasms during sex.

Like, just like it was an insane, uh, number that blew my mind, like that so many women were not, not only not having orgasms, but had no idea that they could have that kind of pleasure having sex with [00:27:00] men. Um, and, and it's like that, that pleasure piece in our education is completely missing. And yes, I agree.

Well think 

[00:27:11] Paul Keable: the Clints is the only part of, of the human anatomy that is designed solely for pleasure. Yeah. It has no other purpose. It is the most ignored part of a female body in most, most, you know, heterosexual relationships. Yeah. Which is insane 

[00:27:25] Ellecia: to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. It's wild. And then we're also not taught that we can talk about what we like.

Right. You can tell your partner 

[00:27:35] Paul Keable: what you like. Well, that falls often into the Madonna Horror Complex because Yeah, particularly when you get married and certainly when you have children, so many people feel, you know, conversations around this nature. Any interest in anything other than, you know, lights out, covers up, pull my nutty when you're down is, you know, that's, you know, I don't do those things with my wife, the mother, and my children.

That's, that's a horror and it's a [00:28:00] ridiculous concept. Just 'cause you have children doesn't mean your sexual identity disappears. In fact, for some people it increases. And why would you not wanna be open to having a conversation with your partner? It does not mean you have to do everything they say, nor should they do everything you say, but you have should have the, the, the capacity to listen.

And if you're not comfortable something, explain it and try as a couple to find, you know, solutions that maybe achieve the same goal without going the path that was originally proposed. And that could mean a wide range of variety of activities. And men, you know, again, if you're listening to me, I'm, let me get counselors to how to keep your, your, your partner off.

Ashley Madison Toys are your friends. They're not your enemy. You're on competition with them guys, you know, learn to play well with others and you will achieve a lot more happiness in life. 

[00:28:48] Ellecia: Truthfully, yes, we are saying the same thing a hundred percent. Gotcha. 

[00:28:54] Paul Keable: I I, it's, listen, at the end of the day, you know, we, we, we listen to our memories.

We get their [00:29:00] counsel and their advice. We're, we're, we're moderating a community that as of now, I think we've had more than 90 million people join since we launch. This is not a small enterprise and you know. People can get very upset with it. And I under, again, I totally appreciate and understand that, that that pushback, but instead of putting your head in the sand, let's get into these hard conversations.

Let's really talk about it. And a lot of our detractors don't wanna do that. They just wanna point to, you know, think about it from this perspective, the 10 Commandments. Adultery is the only sin that's mentioned twice in there. They, they, they want to control, uh, sexuality. They want to control, uh, relationships versus having, you know, giving people the capacity to negotiate and have, you know, different ways of looking at things.

And I think a lot of it comes from mis misogyny. I think a lot of it comes from male, uh, toxic masculinity around the idea that I don't wanna have to change anything because that might, you know. Hurt my feelings as a man, and that can't [00:30:00] happen. So we're just gonna bury that conversation and do it the way we've always done it, because that way I'm happy.

And your feelings are irrelevant. 

[00:30:06] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, I, I think, um, something that I've been. Mulling over a lot lately is this idea that, um, like cheating has this very black or white. Like a lot of people talk about it as though it's the very worst thing you could do. The very worst betrayal that could happen.

And yet a lot of people that I work with, a lot of couples that come to me have opened their relationship because infidelity was discovered and they're like, and we don't wanna lose this. So we decided we were gonna open it up and be honest about it. Now we have to figure all of that out. And I just, I wonder like if we took this.

Really huge moral value out of, away from fidelity, right away from monogamy. Uh, then what would we be left with? Like, like so much more openness. Um, and it's not the worst betrayal that could happen in a relationship. There's so much worse that could happen. 

[00:30:59] Paul Keable: [00:31:00] Absolutely. I mean, listen, financial infidelity is the worst.

Trust me, that is the one that really is gonna break up your relationship. Um, but I get it. But it's interesting when you really start asking people, men and women look at it very differently. Um, a man will look at sexual infidelity as the worst. 

[00:31:17] Ellecia: Not 

[00:31:18] Paul Keable: emotional infidelity. So an emotional affair. They're like, okay, I'm on the set.

I'm not happy, but I, okay, I can deal with that. But it's the only piece for women, quite frankly, women get very upset with an emotional affair because that means it mattered. That means they cared. But a sexual relationship, and again, I'm not saying they're joy, happy, but they're far more willing to forgive a sexual dalliance than they are, and an emotional affair.

And it goes to, you know, the core of, you know who these people are. And again, we, it. Boils down to lack of discussion or communication around, uh, what are the rules of our relationship. We, we, we just make a lot of assumptions 'cause it feels safer to do so. Um, when we, we, when we deal with, you [00:32:00] know, traditional constructs, that way I don't have to.

Question myself. And I think that's the biggest fear a lot of people have about these conversations. Not so much about what their partner's interested or might want to explore, but where their interests might lie. And they don't want to, you know, look inwards 'cause they're a little bit scared of who they might really be.

And for a lot of people that might be terrified, I. 'cause of the way they're raised, because of their religion, because of their family, just 'cause of a million different things. And all I can say is, you know, looking inwards, while scary is going to lead to a lot more happiness because you will then be dealing with your real motivations and your real interests versus what you think you're supposed to do.

Because if you're doing what you think you're supposed to do and your partner's doing what she thinks she's supposed to do, no one's doing what they're supposed to be doing, and you're ultimately gonna be really unhappy. 

[00:32:49] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. I, I agree. Um,[00:33:00] 

okay. I'm curious, I have a couple more questions for you. One, what is the most common misconception about Ashley Madison that you, you'd wanna clear up? 

[00:33:13] Paul Keable: The biggest one is that there's no women on the site. People generally have this belief that for a variety of reasons, Hey, listen, there was mistakes. The company.

Have made in the past. You know, we can't walk away from that. But yes, there were mistakes, but at the same time, our business wouldn't have survived what we've been through if there were not also women on the site. I think a lot of the rationales behind that belief, again, go to Massic 'cause people don't want to believe that women are stepping outside of their marriage, that pe, that women have this sexual agency and.

Good news, bad news guys. They do. And if you're willing to, to have that conversation, you'll read the rewards because they'll be equally, you know, responsive to your interest and desires because you have that level of trust. So I think that's probably the biggest myth, uh, on the [00:34:00] side because the reality, if it was true, then there's just really, really one sexually active woman in each little city where all these men are signing up in, and I don't think that's the truth.

[00:34:09] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's great. Uh, I, I had put out in my Facebook group, uh, same name as the podcast. Nope, we're not monogamous. Um, I had, I had put out like, Hey, if you could interview, uh, someone in Ashley Madison and ask them questions, what would you ask? And one guy said, well, I would ask about how they only charge men and not women.

And I actually haven't looked at your website, so I have no idea. Uh, like I had looked into the pricing structure, but he said, does, is that. Making it seem like women are more valuable than men? 

[00:34:44] Paul Keable: No, it, what it basically boils down to is this, we have a sub, we have a credit based system. So most tra most dating websites are subscription based.

They you're 50, 60, $80 a month and it's an ongoing, uh, cost. Whereas you come onto RSI and you buy a [00:35:00] package of credits and depending on how many credits it's gonna range in terms of per credit pricing. And it was designed intentionally from a female. User experience because again, any woman who's been on any sort of dating website knows they're gonna get a cajillion, likes, messages, uh, um, connections, all the different things.

It's overwhelming because men often employ the spray and pray methodology. I'm gonna swipe right on every single profile and whichever one comes in, I'll take what I can get. And it makes it really difficult for women to sort of filter through, you know, what is, who's a good connection, who's the authentic?

So on our side, men have to be intentional. To, you know, connect with the right person. But here's a part that, you know, people sometimes don't, don't understand until they d delve into the details, is, yes, you have to use credits to connect with 'em. But for sake of argument, I messaged Ellecia and she's like, Hey, he seems like a reasonable person.

A dog to him connect's bad with me. That conversation then can be free between her and I for as long as we want on the [00:36:00] platform. And here's the other part that we think is very valuable for the male side, uh, of the equation. If, again, in that same scenario where you and I have connected, we matched and we're chatting away and we've decided to go off and have some sort of entanglement, my credits remain on the system.

So whether, you know it's a weekend, uh, a month or a year. After you and I are done, you know, you tire me, you realize I'm not the nice person, I think I am. Um, I can go back onto the platform. My credits are there. I don't have to expend any more money and I can continue my, my Ashley Addison journey. So there's a lot of intent behind it and sometimes it's misconstrued.

So it's not, uh, about making women, you know, the showcase. It's about giving them a better experience, but also providing a value to the men. So we think it works really well from that perspective. 

[00:36:48] Ellecia: That makes sense. That makes sense to me. Yeah. So you 

[00:36:52] Paul Keable: sign up on a site, you're spending the $50, is this good relationship gonna go?

Is this, you know, is this connection gonna last And I keep spending [00:37:00] money while I'm, you know, having an offline in real life engagement. I. We don't wanna waste your money that way. We want you to be purposeful. We want to have it, you know, provide real value. And one of the other things that, again, this is just, you know, for everyone knows if you come on our site and you do, you know, message somebody and we end up deciding based on your reporting 'cause we have self-reporting tools or our own investigation, that person was a fraudulent account.

We'll block that account. We'll, you know, ban their, their, their, their, um, uh, uh, their profile, their email, and all the other ways we can identify them. We'll return the credits that you initiated, uh, speaking with them so that you don't lose out on that engagement. 

[00:37:41] Ellecia: That's, you know, we take, take care of our members across the board.

Excuse me. That was actually a question I was gonna ask you was how do you, how do you, um. Prevent, or, or like minimize, like, like scam bots, all of that, that we run into a lot in dating apps. 

[00:37:57] Paul Keable: Yeah, it's, it's across the board in all dating apps, so it's not unique [00:38:00] to us, but it's one we're constantly fighting.

So it's a combination of, you know, AI, business logic tools to detect as they come on the platform. So, you know, we can monitor from a geographic standpoint, you know, we also have moderation. So if you're putting up a profile that says you're five foot two and Burnett, and then you put up a picture of Charli Thera and we're like.

That's not really you. So then we're going to, uh, put you in the fraudulent or suspended account. And here's the thing. We have the option now where members in North America can use government ID through a third party service. So we don't, uh, look at your, your government id. It doesn't come to us through this process.

But you can then verify and that will help you get through any sort of, if we think you're fraudulent, but you're not, you can circumvent this and it's, we're working with a great partner that ensures that you know, your, your, your information is safe, and that way you can get around it. So then you go on the platform as a male or female and you can see which members have government IDed [00:39:00] themself.

Because we have a little check mark there, a little blue check mark, and that helps people identify, oh, that person's obviously authentic because they, they've, I, they've verified their account, and so we're constantly iterating. We're constantly providing no information to our members. I think the key thing is with any dating platform, as with ours, is if you meet somebody online.

Don't jump to giving out really detailed personal information until you've, you know, verified, you know, some aspects of, of that individual to your comfort level. Um, and so, you know, a great example is if you meet a woman online and she says, Hey, come to my video chat. That's a questionable action as a first and foremost.

Two, don't take your clothes off once you get on that video chat. 'cause sometimes men do this and you're standing. It's exciting, it's fun. Uh, but that can lead to some really negative consequences. So until you maybe met that person online and, and, and you know, can validate a little bit about them, you know, don't do those activities.

[00:39:53] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. I imagine that's harder. Some of the ways, like traditional dating, some of the ways that we [00:40:00] like, verify that a person is who they say they are is like checking out their social media checking, you know? And, and I imagine on a platform like this where people are trying to be very discreet, that's, um, yes.

It's very different. Less easy to do. 

[00:40:13] Paul Keable: Yeah. There's, you know, obviously when you're coming to Asha Madison, you know, one of the things you'll notice that is different about our platform is the majority of people don't put up their face as their profile. And that's for very obvious reason. They're, they're, they're likely seeking interference and they don't want their partner to know about it.

So if their partner signed up as well, they don't wanna be seen there. Um, and we built in tools so that you can have a public profile set of images. So it might be a body part, it might be, you know, some sort of, um, activity that you're interested, place, location, those type of things. But then we have a private locker where I can put more intimate images, including my face, and then I can send a key.

So what I'm talking to who can then view those images, they can't screenshot them. And if that conversation doesn't progress or I feel like maybe it's not a great match, I can retract my key and they no longer have [00:41:00] access to that information, they can't see my photos. And so we build all these tools in there to give people that ability to sort of build trust and with the, their connections in a way that, you know, maintains that level of discretion.

'cause ultimately, at the end of the day, I think discretion is the, is the key attribute as Madison in terms of why we're so successful. 

[00:41:17] Ellecia: Yeah. That's fascinating. Very cool. I imagine you, you might get some intense reactions, you know, like, uh, dramatic emails, complaints, maybe death threats, like how do you guys handle that side of things?

[00:41:34] Paul Keable: Uh, we've had royalty attack us. We've had the, the King of Spain was very mad at us once. I think the Pope even was mad at us once too, for something. I can't remember what we did. Uh, yeah. That we've had government shut us down. We, you know, I do a lot of interviews and, you know, sometimes the, the interview uher is not particularly pleased with me.

And I get that, you know, we as a, as a culture are, um, taught from our religion, from our family, from our government that [00:42:00] infidelity is an evil act. Anyone who else perpetuated is clearly also evil. So I do get a lot of that negative feedback. But that's from the anonymous, you know, hoard, what's fascinating to me is that in my real life when I go out and socialize and I'm out and about, I meet people on me, find out what I do for a living.

I almost never get that type of negative feedback. Would I get are the questions? Yeah. Inevitably, if I'm not sort of sort of social event and someone discovers who I am, they'll sidle up to me in some quiet place and they'll say, is it real? People really, you know, match there or the, or the connection.

Like all the different questions that you're asking me are the questions I get all the time because people are fascinated by it, they're interested in it, and it isn't that they're necessarily looking to explore it themselves necessarily, but they are really interested and it becomes a very, you know, deep discussion point.

Um, and so yeah, I do find that. You know, think about it this way, I'll give you two sort of interesting points. One, you know, if you're aware, there was a fairly large [00:43:00] documentary on us last year on Netflix. It was the number one show around the world for two weeks. Um, yeah. And, and it's not just because it was, you know, an interesting documentary, it's because people are really fascinated a bit about our business.

And one of the other points that I always, you know, sort of tend to bring up. Is, you know, we're, we're a cultural reference point. There's a whole Simpsons episode based on Ashley Madison, uh, maj, Marge signs up to sassy madison.com to cheat on Homer. And it's funny, but think about it from that perspective.

You know, a show that has really captured the cultural zeitgeist for over the past, you know, 30 years and constantly is, is look back to, you know, as a, as a way to predict the future. You know, put us into an episode. You know, why? Why is that? Because our culture. Is so interested in this space, but we're so afraid of having the conversation if we use humor or we use anger as avenues to approach it and digest it without actually having to delve into it in an authentic manner like you're doing.

Thank you. 

[00:43:56] Ellecia: Of course, of course. Uh, [00:44:00] with, with, with everything that you've learned in your role, what is one piece of relationship advice that you'd give to someone in a long-term partnership?

[00:44:13] Paul Keable: Well, one piece of advice, you know, say the hard thing. Say the hard thing with compassion and empathy, because holding on to that, I heard something the other day and it really struck me, is when you're in a relationship, you know, there'll be moments of anger. They will peak yet they'll almost always subside when there is moments of joy, they peak and they're amazing, but they will subside as well.

But when there's contempt, that doesn't go away. And contempt is bred from often a lack of communication because I'm unwilling to confront the thing that's bothering me. So I might be angry at the moment about the thing, but if I don't communicate it, that will. Evolve into contempt for the person [00:45:00] because the thing that I need changed, the thing that I wanna address, I've been unwilling to address because I'm so afraid, potentially, of the, of the reaction and the same on my partner.

So something I'm doing or done that, you know, evolves into contempt. And once contempt seeps into your relationship, it is very hard. To, to remove that. And so you can manage anger, you can manage joy, you can manage a lot of things. But contempt, no relationship I believe can, can survive. And so say the hard thing, but do so with empathy.

Do so with, with compassion, and I think you, it doesn't mean you'll ultimately end up in the place you will, but maybe that place wasn't meant to be with that person. 

[00:45:43] Ellecia: That's, that's brilliant advice. I really love that. It's kind of what, uh, everything I say comes back to, just gotta say the things. Doesn't mean you have to do the things, but you have to say the things.

[00:45:55] Paul Keable: You gotta say the things. Yeah. It's, listen, listen. It's easy for me to stand here on my, [00:46:00] on my little couch and, and, and say to the world, these elements 'cause it's just as difficult for me. It's, it's not an easy task. There's no part where, um, you know, where you're having a deep desire for either change within yourself, change within the relationship, or change within your partner because you're, you're, you're not.

Necessarily afraid of the rejection. I don't actually believe rejection is what makes people afraid. I think what makes most people afraid is shame. Yeah. They're so terrified that their partner is not just gonna say no to their request. They're going to shame them from their request. And often that's what also can lead to infidelity.

Because if I, you know, have some, you know, sexual activity that I want to participate in, but I'm so terrified to ask my partner, not just 'cause she'll say no, but 'cause she'll shame me for this. Desire. It's so much easier to go to a complete stranger because the stranger can shame me. I don't care. I have no, I have nothing with them.

There's no connection to them. So that doesn't hurt or doesn't hurt as much. Um, but having your lifelong partner, the person you love and trust the most, say to you that, you know, Paul, you, you're a horrible human being for thinking that. And I now [00:47:00] judge you. Oh. That's got him. And I think that fear is the foundational piece to why so many people do end up on places like Ash or more importantly, end up lying and going on Tinder, pretending to be single woman, in fact, they're married.

So, uh, I think a lot of those elements are, are, are, are the underlying, you know, rationales as to why our business continues to be so successful. 

[00:47:24] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yep. That makes a lot of sense. Uh, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you would like to share? 

[00:47:32] Paul Keable: No. Listen, I, I, I am just so excited to, you know, get this opportunity.

It was so fantastic meeting you and, you know, great that you're receptive sort of to the, to the information. You know, I don't think you're gonna suddenly sign up. Um, but I think, you know, your listeners are gonna be informed about, you know, what is in fact going on. And for those of. Your, your members who are, you know, participate or are interested in phenomenon, monogamous lifestyle with their partner?

You know, I do say that, you know, our platform is designed very much for this audience because [00:48:00] you control the experience so much far. And I know we have couples who use the platform collectively to find different partners and other couples. And I think, you know, five, 10 years from now, that's gonna be a much bigger portion of our business because I think that's where, um, monogamy is going in Western culture.

[00:48:18] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. I agree. I know, uh, you know, my, uh, my husband and I, when we met, we've never been monogamous together. Uh, but when we met, we started out swinging and trying to meet other people, like meet other couples and or other people who were open. Uh, it's really, it was really hard. It's like, where do you go?

And we would find websites that were just hard to navigate. And, and I, it was so hard to tell, are people being honest? Are they not like. Waster, it was literally terrifying. Like, oh my God, we're gonna go meet up with a stranger. I know nothing about them. And like, it was, it was, yeah, so nerve wracking. So, uh, it's a very daunting enterprise, but don't wanna do it.

Yeah. [00:49:00] And 

[00:49:00] Paul Keable: that's why, you know, we've built our system so you can, can do that communication, you can vet the people, you can do it in a way with, you know, there's clearly some. Indication if you're already on Ashley Madison, that you're open to a lot of spaces versus going to some of the traditional sites.

And there are other options out there. And you know, I appreciate all the different spaces, but not all of them are predicated on discretion. A lot of them are predicated on being transparently very open and loud and proud about it, and we have no issues with that. But for people who were exploring non-monogamy for the first time in their forties and fifties and sixties.

It can be a little scary. And so, you know, going on to a site where the expectation is that your face profile is gonna be out there, yeah, that can be a little overwhelming. And so I think this is why Ashley is going to continue to be a designation or designated space for people exploring with their partners.

[00:49:49] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. You know, I, I, I came into this with a lot of assumptions and it's really clear to me that. So much of this comes back to like unmet needs [00:50:00] and fears and communication breakdowns. And so whether it's like non-monogamy or infidelity, um, people are genuinely just wanting to feel seen, valued, you know, have their needs met.

And sometimes the path that they take there can be really messy, but that doesn't make the need for it less real. So I, I really absolutely appreciate you sharing, sharing all of your insights. I, I think this is, it's really important just having all of these conversations to reduce the amount of shame and stigma that we attach to, to relationship struggles and sexual struggles.

And, um, all of these conversations help people find real solutions that are gonna bring them closer to feeling good internally. 

[00:50:43] Paul Keable: That is the goal, and I think you're doing a wonderful job and I really do appreciate you having me on today. 

[00:50:48] Ellecia: I appreciate you joining me. Thanks so much. If this conversation got you thinking, learning, or maybe even squirming a little, I would love for you to take a [00:51:00] moment to rate, review, follow the show.

It helps people find these kind of real nuanced conversations about love and relationships and everything in between. If you haven't already, make sure you hit the subscribe or follow button, uh, so that you don't miss the next episode. I have lots more juicy, thoughtful chats coming your way. Thanks so much for listening.

Bye.