Jealousy to Compersion: Communicating Through Emotions in Open Relationships with Ally Iseman

Ever wondered if you can learn to feel compersion instead of jealousy? Or if talking about opening up your relationship means you're actually ready to do it? This episode dives deep into these questions and more!

I'm joined by Ally Iseman, a certified relationship coach and founder of Passport to Pleasure. Ally brings her unique blend of humor, compassion, and practical tools to help couples navigate the complexities of non-monogamy.

In this episode, we explore:

• Why "conversation is lubrication" and how to make it work for you
• Reframing jealousy (even the hot kind!) as a tool for growth
• The value of understanding consensual non-monogamy, regardless of your relationship style
• Ally's step-by-step method for moving through jealousy
• How to know if your relationship is truly ready to open up

Key Takeaways:

• Compersion vs. Jealousy: Ally shares her personal journey from experiencing what she thought was jealousy to realizing it was actually compersion.
• The NERD OUT Method: Learn Ally's unique technique for transforming jealousy into a mindful, growth-oriented experience.
• Effective Communication: Discover the crucial difference between clear communication and effective communication in relationships.
• Curiosity Over Conviction: Why approaching non-monogamy with genuine curiosity is more powerful than trying to convince your partner.

Whether you're actively practicing non-monogamy, considering it, or simply curious about different relationship styles, this conversation offers valuable insights for everyone. Ally's approach emphasizes personal growth, effective communication, and creating relationships that truly work for you – no matter what form they take.

Ready to explore if your relationship is prepared for non-monogamy? Take Ally's free Relationship Ratio quiz at  www.passport2pleasure.com/ratio to get started on your journey.

And check out Ally's Substack https://allyiseman.substack.com/

https://elleciapaine.com/call

Transcript

Ellecia: 0:01

If you've ever wondered whether Compersion is something that you can learn, or if talking about opening up your relationship is the same as being ready to open it, then this episode's for you. Uh, I'm Ellecia your non monogamous relationship coach and the host of No, we are not monogamous. Welcome today I am joined by the brilliant and hilarious Ally Iseman a certified relationship coach, kink aware, professional, and founder of Passport2 pleasure.com. Ally brings her humor and her nerdy compassion and no BS tools to help couples navigate the relat trip that is non-monogamy. So we talk about why conversation is lubrication hot, right? How to reframe jealousy, even hot jealousy. Uh, and why understanding, consensual non-monogamy is valuable, whether you're polyamorous, monogamous, or somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. And Ally also shares with you her nerd out method for moving through jealousy, step by step. Also, the importance of clear and effective communication and how to know if your relationship is ready to open up without blowing up. This conversation was so much fun. It's smart and real, and full of tangible takeaways. And I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Let's go. Cool. Cool, cool, cool. Well, thank you for coming on. Nope, we're not monogamous. I'm really happy to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to have our conversation. Yeah, for sure. Let's, um, let's start with your story. Like you, you wear a bunch of hats like writer, coach, educator, kink aware professional. Um, what, what drew you to that and, and like, what's your like relationship? Journey style, and I'm like, whatever. In our space, like how sick are you of saying the word journey? Let's be real God. I, God dang. Yes. I'm just like, it's a, it's a relat trip is what God. Relationship trip. Yes. Where are you at on that Uhhuh? So, let's see. I mean, for me, I've always been. I've always been a nerd. When I'm interested in something, I go all in. I wanna, you know, read everything I can. I wanna find just like everything I can. And so for me, the entry point was what I thought was jealousy that I now know is Compersion. Um, I really enjoyed hearing about my partner's, you know, previous exploits, fantasies, et cetera. This is, you know, up until 10 years ago I was dating. Non, I was dating Monogamously. I called myself a serial monogamous. I was only dating men. I would be with them for about the same amount of time, and then I'd be single for about the same amount of time, and then boom into the next one. You know how that goes? So agree. Again, I'm a nerd. When I see there's a pattern, I go, Ooh, pattern interrupts. Let's see what happens. What's on the other side of me being single for a little bit longer? And I discovered that the answer is all of the shit. So that began my personal development journey. Oh, now I have to like look at stuff and, oh, and so it started that and then was still, again, was still dating and got into some more relationships that were monogamous and with men. But I was starting to explore like what my interests were, my curiosities, and um, really coming to terms with a bit more bisexuality are really just like curio sexuality. Talking to them about it and landed on, you know, with a few different partners, landed on like, okay, we can have a threesome with another woman. Um, that never manifested. And then what ultimately became my last monogamous relationship, um, we did try to open up with, again, none of the tools of course, and I have now. And as it does often, it blew up in our face. I would do so many things differently had I know them, what I know now. Um, but what it did tell me was that this is real for me. I need to explore it on my own, at least at first, so that I don't have any more, you know, emotional casualties on my conscience. So what is this? What does it mean? Like, I know there's, you know, parties out there and I've seen eyes wide shut. Like there's people, like, what do I do? Like, do I need a mask? Like what? And so just opening myself up to just not knowing. And I figured, okay, if I'm doing this, you know, I haven't done the single thing. Let me get on the apps. Let me like meet people and start checking off, you know. One afternoon stand and this and that, and just all of that, and I just started meeting people is really what it was. And getting, you know, I got invited to my first play party, which was like just as validating an experience as my first open experience. Just like kind of kept growing from there. And for me it was very community and education driven. Again, like I nerd out. So I was just, any book I could find, anything I could find anywhere to absorb, talking to people, meeting to people, going to events. When I get invested, I go all in. So I started hosting stuff. I started hosting parties myself and just learning by doing And yeah, I made, I, I. Jokingly say, but also very seriously. I learned everything the hard way. So my clients don't have to. Uh, and the reason I transitioned this into, you know, coaching, educating is again, I have such a wealth of knowledge and experience. I loved, I, I discovered, you know, I loved bringing people to their first party. I loved talking to people about relationship. I had a lot of friends that would come to me, a lot of people in the community who saw me in a leadership role coming to me for that advice. And I'm realizing, oh, I'm already doing this thing. How can I do this? At greater scale to help more people and have a wider impact. And that's kind of what brought me to, let me launch this more formally online. Let me create some evergreen, you know, courses, resources, things like that. Let me see how I can scale this information and make it as accessible as possible. That's the long and long. I love that so much. It's so relatable. Oh, thanks. So relatable. Except I was monogamously married for 13 years and when I got divorced I was like, Ooh, I don't wanna do that again. Yeah. Uh, now what? I know what I don't want to do, but you know what, that's still directional. That's great. Yep. Yep. Amazing. So then, so then you're, um. So you created Passport to Pleasure. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. That's my relationship resource platform. I love that. What's, what's the, like, what's the idea behind it? Or, or like who, who does it? Who is it for? For, so the, the company is, it's called Passport to Pleasure because it's not a pill, it's not one button, it's not this quick shot. It's all these stamps on your relationship towards your ideal dynamic. So that's why I'm so passionate about education, and I don't mean that in a, you know, cold, barren classroom. Can't keep my eyes open. Vibe. Like I, my background is entertainment. I'm a comedy writer and host performer, so like, I love that I get to use that skillset and actually talk about stuff. I quite frankly, give a shit about. In this context. So I've created a ton of evergreen content. So there's, you know, workshops that live on my site, courses that, anything and everything you need from being curious about, you know, our, there's other relationship styles, like what does that even mean to, we tried opening it up and it blew up on our face and we're hemorrhaging and we need support. It's all there. Anything you need around consent, Compersion communication skills, how to create your relationship agreement, there's a resource for you on this website to start collecting your stamps. Yeah. I love that. I love that. That's so good. That's so good. One of the things you said was, um, conversation is lubrication, which I love, and I'm curious about that. Like, like what are, what are we really doing when we're, uh, committing to deep, deep communication in our relationships? Yeah, it's. It's intimacy and intimacy is uncomfortable. And I think that's a part of it that we don't hear talked about enough. You don't get intimacy without vulnerability. And in a society that's like built on shame and blame, there's a lot of discomfort in vulnerability. There's a lot of discomfort and Hey, I'm experiencing jealousy. Hey, I don't know what to do with this. Like, I don't wanna yuck your yum, like I'm stuck here. Like that's really uncomfortable, but that's where the good stuff is. And we're not taught those skills. So I always like to say like, we, we literally, we were not taught the tools and skills that we need to build the relationships that we want and deserve. Yeah. And so that's why like, to look at relationship building as an actual skillset. It, it's not your fault if you know, like we were literally, there's this like assumptive culture we have around relationships of like, oh, well, like you had parents so you should know how to relate like, they did a great job. Right? They showed you how to communicate what, who has had that experience? They had a child, so clearly they did it right. They, they obviously did a great job. Continue. Um, yeah, so when it comes to, to communication is, is lubrication it. That's also again, why I call my company Passport to pleasure. Like I'm, I'm wander lustful. I love to travel. I think people who enjoy that, there's this excitement for trips, you know, whether it's a vacation or just going someplace new. There's this anticipation and excitement that we have for what could be the unknown. And yet when we go on those inner journeys, we retract and we get nervous, and there's a fakeness that happens. So I want people to really bring those things together and realize it's, it's all travel. It's all a journey. Our favorite word. So can you have that same anti anticipation and excitement for the unknown in your relationship? If it's not, you know, unknown doesn't necessarily mean the end worse, anything like that. It's just unknown, which means it's possible. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I always tell people, like I, I am also, I love traveling and I always tell people my favorite thing to do is to travel alone. Mm-hmm. Because then I find like the truest versions of me, the way I show up when nobody knows who I am, nobody has an expectation. Right. Like, I'm just me. Mm-hmm. And taking that into relationships, like going, oh, how would I show up if there was no expectation if I wasn't supposed to fit in this box? Yeah, absolutely. I find that too. Just on a personal note, one of the countless things I love about multi-partner dynamics or open relating is I have that sense of freedom as well. Like I. I love having invested relationships in my life that I feel very secure in and stable. And then when I do come across, you know, an, an opportunity to connect, that's occurring naturally. There's this like rootedness, there's like confidence, this authenticity, this, you know, I've got nothing to lose. Like sure this is me in the raw. Like it makes those connections so much more immediately authentic for me and like there's just no pretense. Yeah, there's no need. And then I know technically like we don't need that anyway, but we're so conditioned to like, you know, best foot forward, present ourselves in a certain way and I, we waste a lot of time, honestly and energy doing that. Just like be the version of you you wanna be, but just be that every day. So that's just who you are. Yeah. Yeah. You'll get the ones that fit that. Exactly, exactly. The rest will self-select out. Yeah. I think like it's so important to recognize there's no such thing. I can't, I can't remember who I, I had heard say this first that like, I think every relationship coach at this point says some version of this, but you can't say the wrong thing to the right person. Yeah. Like they, you just, that's not a thing. Your people are there. They hear you. They see you, and if they're not sure, they'll ask a question. They're not gonna run away. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's good stuff. Earlier you said something about you found jealousy was actually Compersion, and I'm super curious about that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So all the fun words that I've learned right on this road. Um, yeah. I've had the, the pleasure of a, a friend and colleague of mine, Dr. Marie Tuan, who's like the foremost expert on Compersion. You really also opened me up to the idea of, you know, erotic Compersion specifically, which is what I do feel, I feel Compersion in general that can be platonic to friends. I really care about. I can actually even experience erotic Compersion for people that I feel platonically towards, but I get very excited by their joy and their happiness. So jealousy, just for those who aren't sure, like jealousy, Compersion, they're, it's commonly called like the opposite of jealousy, but it's not really accurate because you can experience Compersion and jealousy simultaneously. It's not like they cancel each other up. Um, I've had the specific and delightful pleasure of having that experience recently, um, which I'm happy to talk about as well, but for me, I feel. Compersion very easily. I get a lot of joy and I get a lot of pleasure, um, from my platonic romantic sexual relationships. When I have a romantic or sexual partner that I'm like very close with, very secure with, it brings me so much joy to like. I'm like, yes, everyone please, like please know this person. Like in like be a part of this experience because I want more of that in the world. I want more of their joy in the world. I want people to experience the version of connection that they offer the world. Like it's just more, is more to me in that environment. And then we go into Ophelia, which is hot jealousy. When jealousy becomes a turn on. So you can have jealousy is, it's not a generally a pleasant experience. It's very, a lot of very uncomfortable emotions. It's connected to a lot of fear of loss, that sort of a thing. Um, I go, I have a ton of content on my YouTube around the different types, the four different types of romantic jealousy and retroactive jealousy and kind of like how to use jealousy. As a tool, I like to say. So it doesn't turn you into one, how it can actually be a bid for connection and a tool for greater intimacy and personal growth. Yes, of course. 'cause without personal growth, there's nothing. Um, but all that to say jealousy is generally pretty uncomfortable, but it can turn into, you know, an arousal state. It can even become a kink for some people where written on, again, when it's communicated clearly, everybody involved, knows what's going on. It can be a pretty fun thing to play with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. I have a, um, a talk that I do, uh, that's getting turned on by jealousy. Yeah. And, and drying the connections between everything that happens in your body when you are activated. Mm-hmm. And then what's the story you're applying to it? Right. Exactly. What's the physiological, like, just emotional, chemical experience. Mm-hmm. And then the feelings or the story that you put on top of it. It's like, you know, excitement and nerves are the same thing. So which, which story do you wanna tell? Yeah. Is this terrible or amazing? Up to you? Or somewhere in between. Got everything. I love that you, uh, mentioned Dr. Marie Tua and she was on my 49th episode of this show. Cool. It was such a good conversation. She's fantastic. Yes. So good. Truly you get two, two, like again, I use the term nerd very lovingly and like you get two nerds, like guest in a room and it's like, we need like three more hours. It's done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent. So how long have you been doing, uh, like teaching, uh, non-monogamy things? Well, I've been in, in some leadership educator, coach. I. Facilitator role of some kind or another for probably about just shy of the decade. Um, yeah, formally launched Passport to Pleasure last year, 2024, but have been hosting events, um, workshops, um, coaching, like just word of mouth, basically referral only within the communities. It's about 2016. Um, cool. And then, like I said, kind of. Figured out, condensed, all of that together as much as I could. And I'm still creating more content, like there's so much, or, but put all that on the website, passport to pleasure and then, um, that launched last year. That's fun. That's fantastic. Do you think, um, do you think non-monogamy is a choice or an orientation? Yep. Yep. Um, I think it's great to have this conversation, just like, you know, sexuality is sexual, orientation can be so fluid, relationship orientation can be fluid. And there's ano, there is a lifestyle element to it. Like, I, you know, I identify as a queer woman. I don't go to a lot of queer specific events necessarily or anything like that. So it's not as much of a lifestyle per se. When it comes to non-monogamy being open, that sucks positive space. I could not only do I go to a lot of events, I throw events. I'm launching a traveling play party in Europe this year. So like I'm really invested in the lifestyle of it. So for me, it's both, I, I very much identify as a non-monogamous relationship orientation. I, what I was able to experience within myself when I first opened up. Was unlike anything I, I thought I had been loving my partners to my full capacity and then I experienced that and it opened up what I call expansive love. Yeah. It was just this other. Like ethereal thing, I couldn't even communicate at the time. It was like I was, here I am with somebody else having a beautiful experience that I'm very present in. And really, you know, the, the, my first experience was a friend of mine, so we already had a beautiful friendship. It was investing in that, but my partner who wasn't physically present was also very much a part of that for me. And it poured into our relationship, made me feel connected, seen safe. There was just all this stuff unlocked in me that I didn't even know was hiding away. And as I've continued to explore that and develop all these different communication and relational skills, like I, it would be inauthentic for me to try and be in a monogamous dynamic or be, I should say, be a monogamous partner. I have dated people who are monogamous, who understand and celebrate and accept that I am not. So we're in like a mono coli or a monopoly. It's not fun. And, and let's smash all the words together. Oops. And, and it's just like, it's this, it's, it's very much a part of how I relate and, and I want to be the best, most fullest, most generous version of myself as a partner as I can be. And that is possible in open dynamics for me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, expansive love. Yeah, that's like, it's just a yes. And it's like, yes. Literally even the uncomfortable stuff, even though, because I've, I have now since experienced actual jealousy and yeah, it's very unpleasant. It's not the same experience as Compersion. Um, no, but even that, again, like understanding that as a tool that I get to use to a better, know myself, develop myself, and b, potentially use as a bid for connection with my partner to strengthen our intimacy and build more trust, like, yes, yes. It's, I like to think of it's, it's like non-monogamy is exposure therapy. It's not like all of these potentialities go away when you're in a monogamous relationship. There's just an openness and availability for them coming in and out more openly and just like, it's on the table, it's there, we're gonna talk about it. We're not gonna avoid these things. And I love that. And some days it's exhausting, but it's, that's relating with other humans. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exposure therapy. Yes, it absolutely is. And I, I, I often, like, I often work with clients who are willing to experience all of the discomfort that's coming along with this. Like, they're like, yes, I'm willing. And also they're so un, so uncomfortable and they're so activated. And I'm like, you can, you can, you can throttle that, like you can slow it down. You can. Take space to integrate things. You don't have to constantly grow. Yes. Yeah. I think it's super important to talk about capacity in that, in that regard. Yes. That like time is real. It is our only limited, you know, finite resource, but it is. Mm-hmm. You know, we do have to be considerate with it. So like you can titrate that experience. Yes. It doesn't have to be like, oh, immediately I'm aware of this thing. Let's talk about it now. It, we have to figure it out now. Some things take maturation. Some things need to marinate, you know? Yeah. It's not for dinner tonight. It's for dinner tomorrow. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, if I had a nickel every time someone was like, well, I know what the problem is. Why isn't it solved now? Yeah. Oh my God, I'm, I, I know what it is. Wouldn't be an issue anymore. That is so, like, that is something that I am constantly working on within myself. 'cause I'm such a, a doer, productive, achievable. If I know the thing, then it should, like, I've got, I can see it, I can write it down like it's there. Like, that's not exactly how the human body works. That's, there's a lot of things going on. Off to catch up. And so I've learned, yeah. It's again, again, the overused term. It is, it is very much a journey. It is a relationship that you're on, so don't rush it. Relationship trip, don't rush it. Yeah. If you, if you spend your, your whole time, I'm gonna really stretch this metaphor. Go with me. If you spend your whole time on this trip looking for the exit. You're looking for, you're gonna miss all the great scenery and the, the tunes that you're playing in the car and the sing along and everything else, like, it's all there. You're gonna get to the exit, you're gonna address it. You're aware, you know what you're looking for. It's great. It's still there, but like, take a look around. Yes. Enjoy. Okay. So, so as you were saying that, what I was picturing was being on the, it's a small world ride in Disneyland. Epic. You can't get up it. You have to experience all the songs and all the animatronics, but you will get to the end ideally, unless they like overheat. I Have you ever had that happen? I got trapped. I got trapped. Oh geez. That for a little while. That song is very trigger. That's too much exposure therapy. It was a Exactly. That's too much. And this is where titration comes in. You just, you know. Yes, please. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. What would you say has been one of the best like tools or ways to, uh, reframe or get out of, um, jealousy? Hmm. Funny you should ask. Uh, so this is obviously like a big topic as you know, as a coach yourself. Like it's one of the, probably the biggest, most common one that people come in with and I, I love 'cause it's generally the initial query or the initial outreach is some version of how do we get rid of jealousy. And my answer, oh, I'm so sorry. We can't do that. But if you'd like to actually learn how to use jealousy, how to make jealousy or b fff for personal growth and greater intimacy we can do. And so through working with my clients all over the world, through my own, you know, my own relationship, my own journey, and through again, nerding out, um, there's so many tools out there and so many practices and it's wonderful. I am someone who I love, like memorable, like. To like, how do we, how do we put it into a formula? How do we make it like a bite-sized thing that people can put in their pocket and take with them? So I created what I call my nerd out on jealousy technique. Um, and I actually built a whole workshop around it as well. But you can also just get the, um, like a PDF with the, the, it's just a process basically. And so each letter stands for a different part of the process that walks you through how to transform a very activating experience, which is jealousy into something you are actually mindfully choosing to do something with. And it's, it's, it incorporates a lot of different tools. It's inspired by the, the rain mindfulness technique. I'm, I'm sure you've, you're familiar with that. Um, yeah. So yeah, very similar concept, just kind of walking you through body awareness, peripheral vision, using lots of different tools, transforming it into, again, something that's mindful that, that you are making a choice about rather than it steering the ship. I have found that to be a really effective technique. 'cause again, it just breaks it down into steps instead of this, like all encompassing, you know, al wave that's happening for folks. Yes. Yes. That's so good. So good. It's so hard. It's, it's one of those things where you're like, it can be so overwhelming and you forget that there's something you can do about it. Like, you forget that you couldn't also not be overwhelmed by it. Well that's what it, like the first step n Nerd out n is notice just first. First and foremost, it's happening. Holy crap. It is happening so hard. Yeah, it is really occurring. That is step one. Acknowledge notice. That's great. That's, and that's what you start. That's exactly it. That is gotta be. Starting point because I think so many people get stuck in trying to pretend it's not happening. It's not there. Try to make it go away, avoid it. Judging themselves for it. Remove all that. None of that is needs to be here. It's just happening. I notice it. Mm-hmm. Look at that. And I'm not wrong for it. It's just I'm not a bad person because I have jealousy. There's no assessment needed. I'm just noticing. And then each step kind of takes you a little bit deeper into that process. I love that. That's fantastic. Is there a tool or a thing that you, uh, recommend a lot for communication? Hmm. Being a better communicator. That, thank God that's such, such, such a vast, I know. Oh my goodness. Yes. Um, lemme try and narrow it down to a couple like takeaways. I. It may sound a bit esoteric, so I'll try it, try to be a bit more specific. But I like to encourage, I like to check in with myself if I'm communicating, there's a difference between clear communication and effective communication. Mm-hmm. So I'm a writer. I love my words. Words all day. Look at my vocabulary. Look how shiny and how many letters I can fit into one sentence. Look. Look at that. Wow. I'm speaking clearly, I'm speaking accurately, and no one understands what the hell I'm saying. So as an educator, obviously that's a very important, I have to curate what I'm saying based on the audience that I'm speaking to, to make sure that I'm being effective. 'cause it's not good enough to be a great communicator. I have to be an effective communicator. And the same thing applies in our relationships. If you are saying you're, I am communicating what I'm, I'm using I statements, you know, I'm making it about me, I'm, I'm, I'm occurring as an invitation. I'm inviting them into my experience. Like, watch, they're not getting it. It's on them. Or are you not effectively communicating what's going on? Are you more concerned with getting your idea across or being understood? I know it kind of can sound like that's the same thing, but think of your partner, whoever you're speaking to, as though they speak a different language. If you keep trying to say the same thing in your language as clear as day, it's not gonna matter. You have to understand their language, how they speak, how they think that is the next level of communication. It's one thing to be a good communicator. It's another thing to be effective. Learning how to speak to the person or the people that you're speaking to. Yes. Yes. That's so good. That's so good. Um, it's a little bit of like, uh. Putting yourself in someone else's shoes, right? Like mm-hmm. Sense If I, if I lived their experiences, how would this land? Yeah. How do I know? How did they hear this normally? Yeah. And, and you know what? You also might not know this is a new relationship. Yeah. It, it can be as simple as, I, I don't think we're hearing each other, or I don't, I'm not sure that you're understanding. I wanna What are you hearing? Always go from the, for the question, the question finds the next question. Be, be more interested in the questions than the answers, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Like, what are you hearing me say? How is this landing for you? Let them tell you how to communicate with them. Yes. That's a much easier path. Just trying, let me hammer you with the word open. What if I, what if they say it slower? No. But I meant open. Yeah. Well, and that's actually the guide, like one of the, a lot of people will come to me of like, I wanna have that conversation with my partner. I dunno, like, I think I wanna try opening up our relationship, but I, you know, what if, what if they leave me? What if we lose everything? What if blows up in our face? How do I even have that conversation? And I slow them down and I'm like, you actually don't know that you wanna have the conversation about opening up your relationship yet. You actually don't know. 'cause you don't even know what that means. What version of that you want. The conversation you wanna have right now is find out what they think about that. Have they heard about the term consensual non-monogamy? You know, maybe you share a, a video you saw on TikTok or a movie that just came out and you say, Hey, you wanna watch this together? I'm like, this is like totally new to me. Let's see what this, let's see what this is. Get curious together before you even go anywhere near, I wanna open up our relationship. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Too many people are trying to solve the problem before they're talking to their partners about the problem. Ask, I'll deal with the solution that you didn't even know there was a problem. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No kidding. People are feeling, you know, um, oh, what's the word? Uh, like, like sprung on like, uh, I can't think of the word right now. Yeah. But like surprised. And of course they're gonna be on the defensive. They're feeling like we have a problem. But now, now you're talking like there's a lot of, you know, self-protection that goes into that. It's scary. So it's a lot more powerful to come to your partner with. You may feel very excited and all the possibilities and that's great. Get curious then curiosity over commitment for that initial state, for that initial conversation. Yeah. Curiosity is so freaking, or I should say curiosity over conviction, I should say more than commitment. Uh, yes. Yes. I like that. Committed to being curious over convi. I'm all about alliterations. Uh. Mash the words together and give them all Yes, the same sounds. Like I said, I love my words, too many of them. That's amazing. Um, okay, tell me this, what is one of the weirdest or most awkward or most intrusive, uh, questions you've gotten about being non-monogamous? Personally or professionally? Yes. Mm-hmm. Well, that, that probably answered your question right out the gate. It's when people don't honor the, uh, very firm boundary that exists between those two things. The, uh, the assumption that our, uh, consultation call or clarity call is a first date. Mm-hmm. Or they get to now ask me out. I'm like, oh, no, no, that's not, it's a very interesting thing when you coach. I, I'm not technically a sex educator, but I fall under that umbrella because I teach alternative relationship dynamics. And there's this just such an interesting, although I would say it probably does have some of my friends who are more like mainstream relationship coaches, this occurs as well where there there's, um, um, projection that happens, um, yeah, that people, you know, you're seeing, you're feeling seen and heard about a very vulnerable part of yourself that you haven't been able to express before. That's what love feels like. Of course there's that element. So of course I have grace about it. I'm not, you know, upset, but Yeah. Yeah, it's not my favorite, favorite thing. Um, as far as like, I'm trying to think, like directly Oh yeah. I mean, I'm like, lemme go through the glossary, which story there, it's, it's, I think it's this, there's this like shortcut that people seem to think exists that like, now you can just ask me. About my sex life in any environment or, or like things like that. Or I'm just like, oh, I'm, I'm so sorry. I really just want my coffee. Like can I just, just like vente. Thank you. Um, I would say that's probably because it's interesting 'cause I am an open book. I do love talking about this kind of a thing, but context is important. I am a human being and I am not. Available in that way all of the time. Some days sometimes I just wanna sit quietly with a book. I don't want to talk about that. You know? And it's not even a SMU book. Yeah. And he was like, so then it's not even a smut book. Yeah. It's not even, it's just like a very like sci-fi fantasy. There's dragons. It's great. Relatable. Very, very relatable. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share with the listeners? Yeah. I think something that I really, really would love for people to understand is even if you are monogamous, learning about consensual non-monogamy, understanding that there are all kinds of different relationship styles will only strengthen your relationship. Because when you understand what's available to you, you can actually make a choice. When you're just taking a prescription, which is what our society says, it's this is one kind of relationship. This is your only option. It's not working for you. You're the problem. That's a prescription. It's a prescriptive mindset, so you're not actually choosing that. So when you actually understand the whole landscape, you can knowingly and willingly say, I am monogamous. I want to be in monogamous relationships. This is what that means to me. This is how I do that, and this is how I'm going to meet and engage with people to create that together. Outside of that, it's not a choice. So it's just an empowering experience. If you learn about consensual non-monogamy, that doesn't make you polyamorous, that doesn't make you non-monogamous. It makes you interested in investing in your relationship. That's so good. That's so good. Creating relationships that work for the people in the relationships. Yeah. No matter what the dynamic is, I am here for my monogamous people. Like do not ever hear me as saying non-monogamy, good, monogamy, bad, very uninteresting conversation. What is good to me is again, educating and informing yourself, having self-knowledge, understanding what your actual needs are in your, you know, emotional, romantic field and your sexual and physical field. Like those are different needs. What are, you know, what are they? And then understanding all the different ways you can build relationships to support those needs that those needs can grow and change throughout your life. And it's okay if your relationships grow and change too. Even if you decide I want, you know, one partner to do this with. Even that partnership is gonna shift a little bit over time and that's okay. We're supposed to grow. That's how we're designed. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Um, how can people find you? I'm on all the things. Um, I'm very accessible. Passport to pleasure. So it's the number two, the numeral passport to pleasure.com. Uh, on Instagram, TikTok, Substack even. I have a very active substack, a very active YouTube. I release content weekly. I love getting this information out there, and I respond If you reach out on any of these platforms, I'm creating this for you. I want to know what you need. I do work with coaching clients on a limited basis. I. That's why I've created so much, um, content that you can find on my website and again, also on YouTube, on substack. I want everyone to have the information they need at the access point. They need it at. Not everyone's ready to work with a coach one-on-one. It's, it's very intensive working with a coach. You're, you have to be ready for change because it's very different than therapy. For those, for those who aren't familiar with therapy and coaching, not the same thing. They work great together. If you think of it like this therapy is really more focused on the past, helping you understand how you got here, why you're stuck. Mm-hmm. Coaching is about giving you the tools in the present to take you towards that future you wanna have. Yes. So it's really pragmatic and that's why I chose to be, become a coach rather than a therapist. I'm very pragmatic, I'm very, you know, action oriented. I want my clients to have a plan that they can start executing on. Let's make the mistakes now so we can learn from them and recalibrate. I love working, um, directly with couples, individuals. I work with all relationship constellations to help them at transition points. Most often, um, clients will come to me, they're a couple looking to transition to some version of non-monogamy, but it can also be people who've explored some version of non-monogamy and are looking to renegotiate what that structure looks like. Yeah, it's people that are looking to maybe even close that relationship. It's individuals who are looking to date, but what does that even mean to date, non monogamously versus monogamously. So I work with a lot of different folks. For me, the, the sweet spot is really about that transition point, really giving people the tools to start making relationship as a choice. Yes. Beautiful. I love that. Um, I have one more question for you, and this one I. Is, it doesn't go on the main episode. This is for our, uh, supporters@patreon.com slash not monogamous. And the, um, it's called just the tip. The question is, what is a favorite or best sex tip that you would share? And I do wanna say too, there are a lot of people out there who are. Curious. Like I said, a lot of people wanna have the conversation or they think they wanna have the conversation, but they're not even sure that their relationship is is ready for that, right? This is a big shift and so knowing that that's something that's so common, I created, um, a quiz called the Relationship Ratio and it helps you see if your relationship is actually ready to open up without breaking up. So it's a free offer. If you go to my website, passport to pleasure.com, it's there. You can also go to passport to pleasure.com/ratio. Quiz is available. It's there as that kind of starter kit of like, let's see if we're even in a place where we can have this conversation without risking it all. Step one, the relationship ratio quiz. Brilliant, brilliant. I love that. Uh, we need more, more things, more tools like that, I think. 'cause people are just kind of diving in. Yeah. There, well, it's, again, it's that assumption that like it shouldn't take effort or something because we have. Our society suffers from lazy monogamy, is what I call it. Yeah. It's the you, you just fall into it. And then I, well, I've got my partner now. I don't have to like make an effort in any way, and we wonder why divorce rates and unhappiness rates are so high and infidelity, et cetera, like relating is a skillset. It takes development. Um, that's also, I mean, like, not to, I feel like I'm redundant, but that I, I try and find the things that are the most common and create evergreen tools that are always available to people. 'cause again, like I'm one person with 24 hours in my day, so I can't coach everyone. So I created my course, ENM 1 0 1. If you go to open up plan.com. It's the my comprehensive course that walks you through from beginning to end, like, okay, we took the relationship ratio quiz, we're ready, but we don't know what the hell, like, what does this even mean? It walks you through defining all these new terms that you've never heard before, so you understand what you're even talking about. Walks you through all the different relationship styles that are out there, helps you understand and your partner understand what your IRS your ideal relationship structure is. Based on your hierarchy of exclusivity for your physical sexual needs and your romantic emotional needs, and then it walks you through building that relationship agreement, which again, even if you're monogamous, is so important to have so many people. Assume the marriage contract is your relationship agreement. It's not, I don't know if you've run a marriage contract, it's nothing to do with boundaries. You know, safer sex practices, nesting agreements, none of it. So it walks you through that whole process. What even is non-monogamy? What are all these words? What do I need? What do you need? What is the relationship structure that supports those needs? And then how do we create a relationship agreement that supports that structure? You can take it at your own pace. I've broken it up into all these different pieces so you can, you know, I just had a really wonderful email from, um, someone who took in recently saying how much they loved, they could just like, work on it at work. They just like do a little bit on their lunch break, go back to work, do the next little bit, the next day. I want it to be as accessible as possible. So it doesn't, it doesn't have to feel like you're going to, you know, Oxford University and like, it's, it can be fun to go on this adventure. It should be. It should be, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Amazing. That is fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom here. Not all of it, but sharing the wisdom you shared. Thank you so much. Oh my God, how good was that? I hope you're walking away from this episode feeling more empowered to have the conversations that matter and that you're feeling more curious about your own capacity for Compersion. Maybe even ready to embrace your own relation trip as Ali. So beautifully put it, the journey of non-monogamy. Uh, big thanks to I wanna say thank you again to Ali Eisman. Uh, check, go check out pla My god, I wanna thank Ali again for coming on and go check out passport to pleasure.com. She's got courses and tools and a relationship ratio quiz. It's a good place to start. Also, if you enjoyed this episode and you wanna hear more, especially the extra juicy, spicy stuff that you didn't hear, if you're not one of our Patreon supporters, go to patreon.com/not monogamous. Get the good stuff, you'll hear just the tip where Ali shared her favorite sex tip. It was fantastic. Thanks for listening and watching. Be sure to like, subscribe, review, write comments, do all of the things that is possible to do below the thing that you're listening to or watching right now, please. Until next time, bye.