Love Beyond Boundaries: Jeff Hudson on Throuples, Jealousy & Non-Monogamy

What happens when a long-term couple invites a third person into their relationship—and it doesn’t go as planned?

In this raw and revealing episode, I sit down with six-time Emmy-nominated TV producer Jeff Hudson to talk about his memoir Deconstructing Us: My Trouble with a Throuple. Jeff shares what it was like to navigate the emotional rollercoaster of a throuple, how jealousy blindsided him, and why non-monogamy cracked him wide open—in the best and worst ways.

We explore:

• Why three-person relationships are emotional rocket fuel
• How jealousy shows up even when you're experienced in open relationships
• The difference between love and compatibility
• Identity shifts that come with loving outside the box
• Why breakdowns in love can lead to breakthroughs in self-awareness

Whether you're polyam-curious, actively non-monogamous, or just fascinated by the complexity of modern love—this conversation will challenge and expand how you think about commitment, identity, and connection.

📘 Grab Jeff’s book: "Deconstructing Us: My Trouble with a Throuple", available now on Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
 

Retreat in Spain - Learn more and apply at multiamory.com/retreat

https://elleciapaine.com/call

Transcript

Ellecia: 0:00

Okay, today's episode is one Hell of a Ride. I am joined by Jeff Hudson, a six time Emmy nominated TV producer, who's spent decades helping other people tell their stories. But this time the story is his, uh, Jeff's new memoir. Oh, here it is. Deconstructing us. It's probably backward, but that's okay. Uh, my trouble with a throuple. Uh, this story dives into the real, like raw, messy, beautiful complexity of falling into and out of a triad relationship. So we talk about the myths of non-monogamy, why throuple are emotional rocket fuel, and what happens when love stretches you beyond who you thought you were. Uh, so this isn't just a story about relationships, it's a story about. Humanity, really. Uh, some heartbreak, some healing, uh, and some real talk about jealousy and identity and why sometimes three is a crowd enjoy. So first, welcome to know if we're not monogamous.

Jeff Hudson: 1:09

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Ellecia: 1:13

Of course, of course. I'm, I am really happy that you're here. Um, I started reading your book. I haven't finished it yet though, but I'm really loving it. I like your, uh, style. I like your storytelling style.

Jeff Hudson: 1:25

I, you know, I very much just sort of tell everything from my heart and sometimes that actually gets me into a lot of trouble and it has in my life. Um-huh Uh, I feel like honesty is the best policy. So that's where I went with this book.

Ellecia: 1:47

Yeah. Yeah. It really is. I mean, in all the things, right? Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Cool. Well, um, I would you just like real brief Yeah. Just for the listeners, let 'em know, um, let kind who you are, what you do, what's your, what's your what, what's your story? Sure.

Jeff Hudson: 2:10

Um, my name is Jeff and I. Was a television producer for about 25 years. Um, I started way back in the day at the old talk shows, Sally, Jesse, Raphael, Montel Williams, Ricky Lake, the original Ricky Lake. And then I kind of moved out to California. I started doing a lot of dating shows. I don't know if you remember the show Eliminate Where like one guy went on a date with four women or vice versa and then eliminated him throughout the date until one was left. I did some design shows. My big claim to fame was a show called The Doctors, which was a medical talk show, uh, with four doctors on the panel. I actually got an Emmy for that. I'm very proud of. And now I am predominantly spending my time writing, uh, which I obviously got my first book out and I'm working on my second book. My partner is very excited that it's, my second book is, uh, fiction. Um, and it's horror. It's a horror book.'cause that's really where I love horror. Like I'm obsessed with horror. Yeah. Uh, and I also work at a resort here in Palm Springs. I live in Palm Springs, California. I'm kind of living the midlife life right now.

Ellecia: 3:32

That's amazing. I went to Palm Springs a couple of years ago for a retreat and I like fell in love with it. It was so fricking nice. It is

Jeff Hudson: 3:39

so brilliant here. I will say that I've been, you know, I've been out here since 2004, back and forth between LA and here, and every time my friends come from la. They enter the Palm Springs zone, they all immediately just zen out. There's something that trigger, I don't know if it's the big mountain or whatever the case may be, but I could have like the most stress case friends and as soon as they come into town it's like it's all good. And that's the only time I wanna see them now is in Palm Springs. I don't wanna see them in LA anymore. I'm not going back to LA anymore. This is too stressful. That damn 4 0 5, fuck that. No way.

Ellecia: 4:23

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Yeah, it was, I like, when I was there, I was so happy. I was like, God, this is just, uh, like, it just felt so good. It's a good

Jeff Hudson: 4:31

place. And it's very sexual too. It's a very sexual town.

Ellecia: 4:35

Yes. Yes. We, we

Jeff Hudson: 4:40

do like that.

Ellecia: 4:42

Yeah. Amazing. Okay, let's, let's, um, let's start with something simple. Uh, what, what is non-monogamy? Mean to you? Or what does it look like for you?

Jeff Hudson: 4:54

For me, it's, it's two people who are in a relationship that have agreed to open up the gates and allow each other to have sexual relations with other people. Uh, and that comes in many forms, and it comes in many forms for different people. For some people it could be. Oh, you could kiss other people, you could cuddle with other people. For some people it could be, uh, foreplay, it could be oral sex or whatever. And then it could be intercourse. For some people, it could be like, oh, we could only do it if we're with each other. And for others it could be don't ask, don't tell. There's very many degrees of open relationships and, and polyamory, and I've been through almost all the stages. I. I think going into my throuple kind of elevated it to a whole new level that I was not prepared for. Mm-hmm. Because with that comes that, I think it comes with a set of emotional stuff, you know, it's, it's, for me, polyamory and open relationship has, and non-monogamy has always been. I'm gonna go fuck this guy. I'm gonna go have sex with this person and I come home to my pers my, my person, you know? And that was okay. Uh, getting involved in a throuple, you allow the person sort of a co equality in the relationship where feelings are now involved, decisions are now involved, choices are now involved, and that I wasn't so sure I was ready for it. Even though I actually truly believed at the end of the day that I was ready for it.

Ellecia: 6:51

Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. Uhhuh Uhhuh. Yeah. I feel like that's, that's most people who have an established relationship, like an established couple, think have this idea that a third person is the easiest way to go. Yeah. When really it's like the hardest as, as a parent of three children, I know that anytime you have uneven numbers, somebody's always feeling left out.

Jeff Hudson: 7:17

Yeah. You know, I didn't realize it until it was actually happening, but you go from a, a two person relationship, just me and my per my person. And then when you actually declare the throuple, you have four relationships going in. There's the relationship between me and my my person. There's the relationship between me and the new person. There's the relationship between the new person and my partner, and then there's the relationship between all four of us, three of us, right? There's four relationships going on, and that is mind boggling that, that to me was, I don't know how the third person managed it all. Because he actually had the most work to do, if you think about it. Yeah. You know, and I call him the magician in my book, the Master Magician.

Ellecia: 8:17

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's so much

Jeff Hudson: 8:25

For sure.

Ellecia: 8:26

It's so much. Yeah. Yeah. What was the, what was the most surprising. Like, like that couldn't have been the most surprising thing for you? Just how, how many relationships

Jeff Hudson: 8:36

it was? No, no, no, no. Uh, surprising what, what, what, what's your question?

Ellecia: 8:45

What wa what was the most surprising thing that you learned about that? Like, what did you not expect?

Jeff Hudson: 8:53

Well, first off, I will tell you that I have never in my life. Not even with my former guy of 22 years, I was swept by this third person. I have never fallen so quickly, so hard for anybody as I did this third person, and even though like my. Guy of 22 years, I, I fell pretty quickly, but like, I don't know what it was that this guy had over me, but I was immediately entranced by everything about him. So I was in living in this bubble of, oh my God, this is amazing. This is amazing. This is amazing. And then I actually met this guy first, and then I introduced him to my partner. I, my partner and I never actually had threesomes together off, so we never agreed upon who he wanted to be with. This guy was very much my type, but he had a very soft demeanor. He had a very pretty demeanor about 'em. So I was like, you know what? I think that they're gonna get along. And sure enough they got, they got along well. And they immediately hit it off, which is what I expected. So it all happened really fast and he, what surprised me is that my partner fell as quickly as I did. And yeah, we, within weeks of meeting this guy. Who was from the middle of nowhere, Canada. We were in Southern California. We meet in Mexico, we open the gates and we just let this guy in. And I never in a million years ever thought that I would do it, but it felt extremely good and right at the beginning, so all I could do was go with it.

Ellecia: 11:13

Wow. Who? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and all those good feelings you had in the beginning. Did they, um, did you feel good about following those?

Jeff Hudson: 11:28

I did in the beginning. Um, I, I should, and I talk about this in the book as well, I should have listened. I, I'm a firm believer in listening to your body's inner whisper. Um, and I generally do, but for some reason I didn't do it in this circumstance. Like there were signs and things happening that I should have been, I should have said to myself, uh, I need to put, I need to think about this for a second. Right at the, right, at the beginning of our throuple, uh, especially when, uh, his name, I'll call him Lucas 'cause that's what I call him in the book, he. Incessantly was FaceTiming us, texting us, communicating with us electronically to an extent that I have never done before. I don't even, I'm, I'm not, I don't like talking on the phone. I don't like texting. It's not me. But every time that WhatsApp ping happened, or every time I heard like his name being announced, I, my body just like. I got the tingles, you know? Mm-hmm. But it was so obsessive that I look back at a noun and I think that it was definitely something that I should have paid more attention to. It. It wasn't, nor, I don't think it was normal, uh, the amount of time that we were all communicating on, on the phone, it just, it didn't, it, as I look back at it now, it just doesn't feel right. I. Um, and then as we progressed, I started to notice that there were things sort of occurring between the two of them, uh, that I was watching from the sidelines. I, I could see the way they were holding each other. I could see the way they were looking at each other. I often spent, uh, the nights in the adjacent bedroom because. There were three of us, there were three golden retrievers, too many bodies in the bed. And I was the one that left. And I started to realize that okay, nobody really cares that I'm in the other room. Uh, and but at that point, by the time I got to that point, I also realized that my partner had very much fallen in love with this guy as much as I did. Right. So. There was a part of me that wanted to call quits, but then there was the other side of me that said, okay, I could lose my partner. He could just go be with this guy and, and leave me if I, if I really pushed this. So I was kind of really caught in a catch 22 situation.

Ellecia: 14:30

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's a super, super common. Concern that happens. Yeah. When people are like, Ooh, there's something about this relationship that isn't working for me. But if I call it, I could lose the up parts that I do want.

Jeff Hudson: 14:46

Yeah.

Ellecia: 14:48

And then people just keep going.

Jeff Hudson: 14:50

Yeah.

Ellecia: 14:51

Until, listen, until the next step. I,

Jeff Hudson: 14:56

yeah. Totally. Right. I am, I'm a, yeah. I'm a firm believer in non-monogamy. I, I think that, um, I. Most people. Truly, I think most people will do it. I think most people wanna do it, or most people are lying about it, period. And when they're lying about it, they're probably just cheated. So it's, it's why are we not opening up this conversation and. Making people feel comfortable with talking to their spouses or their boyfriends or their girlfriends and saying, this is what I'm interested in. This is what I want. Instead of, Hey, I'm, or going out and cheating. Like, what's the point of cheating? I don't get it. I don't understand it. Just talk to your partner and listen, even if your partner's not into it, when you first have that conversation, you have now opened the door and I can guarantee you, or, or I'm pretty sure. That it's on their mind as well. Right? And as soon as you open that conversation up, even if that partner says, no, I don't wanna do it, I guarantee you in a year or two years down the road they might say, Hey, remember that conver, remember when you asked me that question? I've been thinking about about it, right? We're human beings, we're sexual creatures. It's like it's part of, yep. It's part of who we are. I don't believe in, um. Sex with the same person for the rest of my life. A, I don't want to do that for the rest of my life. And b, I just think not only does it actually hurt you as a person, I think it hurts your relationship. I think being open and being, uh, poly or, or being non-monogamous actually helps your current relationship that you're in. Things about the person that you're dating or married to or whatever that maybe you wouldn't have known just from sex with each other. They might come back and tell your story and they might say, Hey, when I met with this person, this is what happened and I actually really enjoyed it. And maybe that was something that you were uncomfortable with talking with your partner, but when you know you open the gate to the third person. It sort of allows a more things to happen and I think it's amazing. I think it's just an amazing thing.

Ellecia: 18:34

I agree. I, yeah, I agree. There's something one, one thing is, you know, just in long-term relationships, we kind of get into these patterns of like, I already know what my partner's gonna say. I'm not even talk about things'cause I know how they feel. Yeah, right. And then when you have something new where you're learning about them and they're learning about you, you. Show different parts of yourself and you expose different parts of yourself, whether not even just to that newer person, but to, to your existing partners as well. And then you get to like, have experiences that you get to bring home.

Jeff Hudson: 19:04

Yeah.

Ellecia: 19:05

Do things in new ways. Exactly. Be novel,

Jeff Hudson: 19:08

Ryan. Like why would, why wouldn't you wanna do that? I think, yeah, I think that, like I said, I think most people, what I have found really interesting over the course of my, uh. Non-monogamous life, which has probably been about 15 years, around 15 years, is that when I first started, I was very apprehensive about discussing it with anybody. I did it, my partner and I agreed upon it, and we just it. Then I was like, I am really enjoying this and I'm gonna start talking about it, and I started talking about it with my gay friends. I started talking about it with my straight friends and I started talking about it with my family and what was, what I found really interesting is that almost all the time, the conversations actually lasted for a while and it wasn't like, oh, this is what I do, and they got Squamish and backed off. They started asking questions because they were interested. Because, yeah. Oh, this is something I've thought about or this is something I wanna do. And I think that we live in a time now that it's, it's all over movies. It's all over tv. We're not in the year 2000 anymore. There's so many Yeah. TV shows and films that have explored this and, and, and people are open to it. And I think people want to know about it. And what I've learned is. That the more people ask questions, it's because they're into it, period. They wanna know they wanna do it.

Ellecia: 20:57

Yeah, yeah. They're curious about something that interests them. Yeah.

Jeff Hudson: 21:01

Yeah. And chances are like there's, I think you and me, and some of us are the brave ones who really push the envelope and we really talk about it, and we really go that extra mile and take this important subject and bring it out in the open. Um, but I applaud anybody at any level of this. Uh, even if you're just thinking about it, there's nothing wrong with it. Uh, absolutely nothing wrong with it. And they should never think that, uh, it's actually a very natural and human thing to occur in your, in your, in your soul, you know?

Ellecia: 21:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, you know, I, I used to, before I, before I did this, uh, I used to own a salon and, um, I would talk to my clients. There were some clients I was just open with and we would tell'em what was going on in my life. Yeah. Me and my husband were, went to a swingers' club, whatever. Um, and then there were others that I was scared to talk to. Like, you know, I'm like, oh, she's a very proper real estate agent. And, but then I would, and those were always the ones that were like, oh yeah, my husband and I used to do that too. Tell me more. Yeah, I'm like.

Jeff Hudson: 22:15

It's always the ones that you, you're not expecting that really, like, do that every

Ellecia: 22:19

time. And you

Jeff Hudson: 22:20

know what, the ones that like sh poo poo you or sh shush you up, fuck, go fuck off. I don't know. Like I'm, I can't be bothered with you at this point in my life. You know? It's like those aren't my people. Yeah. But not my, not my people either are, am I allowed to swear on this? Yeah. Sorry. Okay, good.

Ellecia: 22:39

Yeah, absolutely. I tend, I

Jeff Hudson: 22:42

tend to curse a lot, so,

Ellecia: 22:44

yeah, me too. Okay, good. Uh, what, so what, what led you to explore non-monogamy? Like was there, um, like a defining moment or like a slow opening? This

Jeff Hudson: 22:58

is a very interesting question that you ask and you're gonna be, I think you might be surprised by this answer. Alright, so. Eight. My non-monogamy actually came, not really by interest, eight years to the day that my partner and I were together, we were monogamous. Mm-hmm. And I found out that he cheated on me. And we split up for a little while because I was flushed, like beyond belief. Mm-hmm. You know, this is in a world as a gay man where prep wasn't around. We, like, we couldn't protect each other from, protect ourselves from HIV, from prep or whatever. So we were, I was still using condoms at the time and he was off fucking people on the shrouds. Right. I was devastated. We broke up

Ellecia: 24:02

I bet.

Jeff Hudson: 24:02

And, um, we got back together a few months later and he, you know, he came, we met at a bar one day and he said, why don't you come home? Let's give this another shot. And I decided that I was gonna do it. I, I loved him immensely and, but the only way that I could do get back together with him. Was if I open the relationship and I said to him, if we get back together, the relationship needs to be open. And I did that in a weird way to have some control over his cheating because I knew that he needed that and I knew that like he would never. Keep a stick in his pants, so I knew that I had to open it up. I knew that I had to allow him where he could safely come home and tell me stories, and I could go do my own thing as well. That being said, it turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to us. I, it worked out, even though the decision of why it happened. Was sort of weird. It, it, it became a really good thing for both of us. It strengthened our relationship. It opened up my sexuality, probably his as well. Um, and that's kind of how it, it happened, it happened in a way where I thought by opening, I was sort of just keeping tabs on his cheating. Uh, but then it mm-hmm actually turned out to be something much better than.

Ellecia: 25:45

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's really funny that you say it felt like a way to like control his cheating.'cause I, I, I think that that is what a lot of people do is they have this, like, if, if I know, if I know all the things, then I can stay safe. If I mm-hmm. If I can set the right rules in place, if I can make sure that I have my hands in all the things Yeah. Then I can feel emotionally

Jeff Hudson: 26:11

safe. Yeah. Let me ask you a question.

Ellecia: 26:13

Yeah.

Jeff Hudson: 26:14

Lemme ask you because, um, like for me, I need to know, like with my current guy, like even though we're, he is more apprehensive about always telling me everything, I always ask him, I'm like, tell me exactly what happened. There's something about not knowing that bothers me. I need to know what you did. I need to know, like either that you're gonna go do it, that you're doing it, or that you did it. But I wanna know the details and, and I don't know why that is, but a, I think it makes me feel that, A, we are completely communicating and we're open, but I also just like, I just need to know, like I, I love, I actually like hearing it, the thought of. Not quite. Knowing that something that may have gone on makes me, makes me crazy. What about you? How do you feel about that

Ellecia: 27:15

Uhhuh? I, I have had both experiences actually. Um, so when, so I've always been a pretty like jealous and possessive person my whole life. And so when I decided I wasn't gonna be monogamous, I was like, well, that's. Gonna cause a problem. I gotta figure that out. Yeah, you gotta figure that

Jeff Hudson: 27:32

out for sure. Mm-hmm.

Ellecia: 27:35

And um, so my first thing was like, I wanna know everything. I wanna know the conversations you're having. I wanna know the sex you're having. I wanna know everything. Because I thought that that part of that was like, my imagination is gonna make everything so much worse than the reality.

Jeff Hudson: 27:50

Exactly.

Ellecia: 27:51

Right. Um. Yet, even though I knew all the things, I would still fixate on some of it and be like, well, you know, was it the left side of the bed or the right side of the bed? Like I really, I would just like, I, like, there was a, it was like a net, a bottomless pit of, of information that I needed, right? Like my partner was like, I, I can't tell you enough to make you feel secure. Like. You know? Yeah. Well you, and so, so then I go, started going, well, okay, maybe I don't need to know everything. Maybe there's certain aspects of it that I need to know, right? Like, not every little detail, but enough to know like, oh, you're, you're doing a thing. Cool. Right? Have fun. Are you enjoying it? Can I feel maybe a little bit co of conversion for that? You know, it, for me, it always came down to were they better than me? Like that. Like just the things that triggered my insecurities and now I'm like, okay, I would just like to know that you came home and you still love me. So I've gone through a whole like exactly spectrum. And a lot of it I think came down to my own internal sense of security. Yeah. Like just keep kept working on my self-esteem. So that like now if I wanna know details, it's 'cause like I'm real curious and actually interested in the details like. Did something hot happen that I can be excited about? Yeah. I love that. Is there something I can learn from?

Jeff Hudson: 29:12

Right. Um,

Ellecia: 29:13

but in the beginning it was very much like, just give me anything to make me not feel insecure.

Jeff Hudson: 29:19

Yeah. Yeah. I, I totally, I totally, I totally understand that. And, you know, I don't think, um, and what I've learned, and probably you have as well, is like, they're never better. Those people are, are never better than you. It is just different, you know. Okay. Different is okay. And they're never gonna, they're never gonna be you. They're never gonna match you. They're never gonna be better than you or outdo you. They're just different and sometimes different is okay, you know? And like you said, I think that there's something to be said about hearing the story and being turned on by it and learning from it, and maybe like incorporating some of that into your own sex life or whatever the case may be. You know, I, after this rep ended, uh, in December, 2022 in a catastrophic way. I don't know if you've got that part in the book yet. Um, we haven't gotten there yet. Yeah, it's pretty, my parents get involved. It's a whole thing. Um, oh yeah. He did it in front of my parents at Christmas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uhhuh. So, uh. I'm not bitter anymore at all.'cause I truly believe the universe actually set this third person into my life. A, to bring the two of them together and B, to get me out of what I was in. And I, I gotta tell you, I loved what I was in. Okay. But I also think that even though I didn't want to face it, I think it was time for when I was in to end and it was time for me to grow as a person. And like, I'm an artist, you know, I, I've always been sort of one a person that is always trying new things and, and doing new things. And he was very more, you know, very business minded type of guy. And what, what The point I'm trying to get at is my sex life in the past two years transcends my entire existence prior to it. Like what has happened with the person I've met is off the charts, and it would've never happened if Lucas Walker did not walk into my life.

Ellecia: 31:57

Uh huh. Mm-hmm. Uhhuh, Uhhuh, Uhhuh. That makes so much sense. I, my partner says there's no such thing as a bad breakup. I mean, even if it's, you know, painful or whatever. Yeah. Like, nobody should be in a relationship with someone who doesn't wanna be in a relationship with them. A hundred

Jeff Hudson: 32:11

percent.

Ellecia: 32:11

And like, right. And, and when things. Shift and change. Like there's so many opportunities that open up to you that you don't know are opportunities. You don't know that there what's available to you if you're, if you're in this box, you don't know what other boxes there are.

Jeff Hudson: 32:28

Yep. And I, and I, you know, it's cliche and people talk about it all the time, but I actually really do believe, and that's what I talk about in the book as well, it's like listening to your inner whisper. And I really do believe in the unit protecting you. You know? And I believe that the universe guides you and you gotta. You have to watch the signs and you have to be, you know, weary, cognizant of, of what those signs are. After this breakup, so many people kept saying to me, karma, karma, karma. Karma's gonna get 'em, Karma's gonna get 'em. And every time someone said that to me, I was like, I don't want term together. I, I didn't want that for him and. I truly mean that I never, I don't want karma to get him, and I don't, I, I even though like I hated them so much for the time that I was going through, I am thankful that it happened and I am thankful that they have each other, um, because. There's no point. Like if I dwell my whole life on why, why, why, how, how, how, it's only going to hurt me moving forward. It's only gonna hurt my mm-hmm. Relationships moving forward. Like your, your boyfriend is your, your boyfriend or partner? That's my

Ellecia: 33:55

boyfriend. Yeah. Your

Jeff Hudson: 33:55

boyfriend. He's very right. There's, I don't, I actually, I haven't heard that. Phrase often, but I really agree with that. I don't think they're really breakup that, you know, isnt

Ellecia: 34:09

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think it's really good. I like who you're talking about, about, um, the universe protecting you. I, I like to think of our brain as like, we have these really smart, but really dumb computers. Yeah. Um, but the a the algorithm is, is designed to pick up on the clues to put you in the direction that you should be going. Yeah. The algorithm that your brain. Uh, uses. Mm-hmm. Right. If you're paying attention to it, it will be like, Hey, turn left here, turn right here. Mm-hmm. Open that door. Don't go anywhere near that door. Mm-hmm. And if you're paying attention to it, where you wind up is like, great. That was exactly what I was supposed to be.

Jeff Hudson: 34:46

Mm-hmm.

Ellecia: 34:46

That all worked out.

Jeff Hudson: 34:47

I mean, how many times do you look back and everyone experiences this all the time where you say, oh, I knew I should have done that. I like, I, I felt it. I didn't do it. We do it all the time. Yep. And the one thing that I am really committing to now at this point in my life, is not doing that anymore. Like, I'm not doing that. Like, oh, something said to me, do this, but I didn't do it. I'm not doing it. If, if I feel innately in that moment, like something is not right, then I'm going to, I'm gonna go with that feeling. If I feel like something is right in that moment, I'm gonna go with that feeling as well. If I'm confused, I'm just gonna pour myself a vodka.

Ellecia: 35:37

Yeah. Yeah. We've been, we've been so conditioned to ignore our intuition. Yeah. So conditioned. I went to a thing, um, a few years ago where it was a, like a weekend with a bunch of women learning about intuition and how to like, pay attention to it and. I was like, I don't, she was like, you know that gut feeling that you have? And I was like, no, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what feeling you're talking about. And so what she had me do, she was like, just flip a quarter. Anytime you're making a decision, you know I'm gonna wear the red shoes. If it's on heads, I'm gonna wear the black shoes if it's on tails. She was like, you flip a quarter, it lands on heads. If you're like, ah, if you feel disappointed, you don't have to do the thing it said. But now you know what your gut feeling is. Mm-hmm. It wanted, you really wanna wear the black shoes? Doesn't matter what the quarter said, but you get, learn what your intuition is saying.

Jeff Hudson: 36:25

Exactly. I was like,

Ellecia: 36:26

that's brilliant. We started doing that

Jeff Hudson: 36:28

and the, and that kind of stuff happens all day, every day, every minute of the day. It's, it's those little things that even now, if I think that I'm supposed to make a left turn and I'm gonna make that left turn. I just, I follow what I'm, I feel like I'm supposed to do hope. I hope it doesn't kill me, but

Ellecia: 37:00

guess we'll see.

Jeff Hudson: 37:01

Well as the, as the universe is telling me, it's my time.

Ellecia: 37:07

You know, that's, I think that's kind of, uh, everyone who opens a monogamous relationship is like, I, I hope this doesn't kill me.

Jeff Hudson: 37:14

Yeah. Yeah. I so. Um, let me ask you a question. So do you think that most people are interested in this subject matter? Like do you think that am my, like,'cause I really actually believe that most people, like I said, are either interested in it, wanna do it, or are lying about it. And that's just cheating. Like how mu I mean, do, I would say

Ellecia: 37:41

about half.

Jeff Hudson: 37:41

About half. Okay. That's fair. I mean, do, does it really exist where. Maybe it does, and I'm sure it does.'cause my parents are a living proof of it. They were together like 60 years and they're committed and they're lovebirds still. And I love it. But at the same time, it's like, how often does that really, really, really truly happen? Does it really, really, really happen? I don't think so. Maybe I'm wrong. I God bless my parents for it, and that's why I always strived for it. And I think that they're a little disappointed that I've gone far away from what they believed in. But I don't know. I just feel like it's just not, it's just not something that is there anymore or maybe it never was there. I don't, I don't,

Ellecia: 38:39

I think. First of all, out of the billions of people in the world, right? Like the chances that you're gonna work with or live next door to the one person you're gonna fall in love with, like really that that's, that's so far fetched. And we have so many people who are like serial monogamous, right? They go from one relat to five years in this relationship, 10 years in this relationship, a year in this relationship, right? And every time they're in love, every time it's real. Or maybe they look back and go, oh, we may, it really wasn't. But I mean, at the time it was. Um, so, so monogamy for life? No, I don't think that is really what we're, we're wired for. Mm-hmm. Um, but some people, monogamy is what works for them because of their emotional capacity or their sexual capacity or just, you know, life being life and, and what they're actually able to do or what they, um, can conceive of. But I would say about half are like. If the opportunity were there, I'd probably take it. Yeah. If I didn't think I'd lose the life that I have, I'd probably take it.

Jeff Hudson: 39:40

Yeah. Hall pass. Right. Yeah. And I think that has a lot to do with it too. It's like if it ends catastrophically like it did with me, but even though I don't consider this, I was always not monogamous with, um, him. It was the throuple aspect that sort of crashed it all. But you do. There is that element of you could potentially lose everything in your life. Like your whole life gets from upside down. You know, I, I lost my home and there's, I lost family. I lost friends. But like I said, um, again, there are my people and my places or whatever that have not left me. And those are my, that's my constant, you know. And I, my friend reminded me after the split that really sort of resonated with me is that the people that always loved me and stood by me were still standing by me. The people that weren't there anymore were meant to go.

Ellecia: 40:56

Yeah.

Jeff Hudson: 40:56

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ellecia: 40:58

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Which I think is great. You know, we, we evolve and change throughout our lives and the people that are, that we're in relationship with and in community with also grow and change. So it makes sense that, you know, we'll, we'll have different people with us mm-hmm. In different parts of our lives.

Jeff Hudson: 41:17

Yeah.

Ellecia: 41:17

It makes so much sense.

Jeff Hudson: 41:19

Yeah.

Ellecia: 41:20

Yeah. Um, I'm curious, before and after the throuple, was jealousy an issue for you?

Jeff Hudson: 41:31

No. So I, I was, and, and that's why like I actually walked into this ruple thinking that I could really do it because I was not a jealous person. He was definitely not a jealous person. If, if you had to pick outta the two of us, who was the more jealous? It would probably me. It was just because I needed to know everything he was doing as long as he was telling me what he was doing, when he was doing it, how he was doing it, all that kind of stuff. As long as I could have the picture painted in my head, I was good. I wasn't not a jealous person. Um, because I knew at the end of his vacation or work trip or night out with his friends, if he went home with somebody that he was coming home to me. He was getting in my bed, you know, he was mine. We're, we're waking up together. You know, we're spending Christmas together, we're moving, you know, we do every, we make the decisions together. He was my person, so jealousy was not an issue for me. Um, but as soon as the emotions got involved, as soon as I gave that third person equality in a relationship that I had cultivated for 22 years. Jealousy became a big factor. And after, uh, there's a part in the book that I talk about after the breakup. Lucas, the third guy, um, it was Christmas time. It was a couple days after Christmas. He was in Palm Springs as well at that time.'cause long story, but he came to the house with the gifts that he intended to give me over for Christmas. I had all of his wrapped as well. Don't ask me why we decided to exchange them at that point, but we did. So he comes into the house. My partner's long gone out. I don't know where the fuck he is. Lucas comes into the house, sits across this table in my dining room that's 10 feet across all of his gifts that were geared to me or unwrapped, and he starts tossing them to me like I was a dog. He was like, this one was meant for when we were gonna be in. Uh, Canada at New Year's, this one was, and he just, and I was like, what the fuck? Like, why are you treating me like this right now? And I realized that, oh, so he says to me during this altercation, your jealousy got in the way of everything. And I, I couldn't, I could barely breathe. And I said to myself later, when I could actually process what had happened in this moment. Damn right. I was jealous. Damn right. I was jealous. I was in a 22 year relationship and there were things going beyond my back and things were formulating. I had every right to be jealous at that point. Because things were happening, you know, five days later after this all happened, I'm on Grindr and I found the two of them in Miami on in Miami Beach together. So you're gonna tell, right, so you're gonna tell me that there wasn't something happening? Damn, Brian, I'm gonna be jealous just saying

Ellecia: 45:03

Uhhuh.

Jeff Hudson: 45:03

Uhhuh.

Ellecia: 45:04

Uh. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I talk a a lot about jealousy on the podcast because it's this thing that we use as like an insult or like, there's something wrong with you if you're, if you experience jealousy, like, oh, you're just jealous, like that, that takes away everything else that you're feeling like, that excuses it, like it's fine. You're just jealous. Mm-hmm. Like, wait, no, this is not the real feeling that is coming from a real place.

Jeff Hudson: 45:34

Jealousy is, and it may

Ellecia: 45:35

not be exactly what I think it is, but something is, is here that I need to address.

Jeff Hudson: 45:40

Yeah. Jealousy is a very real feeling and nobody should ever feel ashamed or smaller because they feel jealous. Jealousy comes with the fact that you care that you love. And if you weren't jealous, some the degree that could be a maybe you don't really care or love that person. Jealousy is just another facet of loving somebody.

Ellecia: 46:16

Hmm hmm. I would say that's a, can be a part of it, but there's plenty of people who don't get really jealous when they love someone. I think. I think it is one signal. Often, often it's a signal of, um, loving someone more than you love yourself.

Jeff Hudson: 46:42

That was me

Ellecia: 46:44

Uhhuh.

Jeff Hudson: 46:45

I, and I did, I, I, I, I think I actually, I know for a fact that I loved my partner more than I love myself as I look back and reflect everything. Yeah. And. I think I actually wanted to love the new person as much as well, more than I love myself as well. Yeah. Um, and just up until recently I've realized that, again, I know this sounds cliche, but I really, I think people. Whether it's your mom, your dad, your partner, your husband, your wife, your best friend, or whatever, I think people that are in your life love you in different ways and on different levels, right? Mm-hmm. So you have this pool of people that love you in all these different ways that sort of make this full thing globe around you, right? You are the only person that can love you yourself. In all totality, you're the only person. Mm-hmm. Me. I'm the only person that I have that will love me in all totality. Completely. Yes.

Ellecia: 48:04

Yes, absolutely. A hundred percent agree. Yeah. It's that, that unconditional love we're always looking for. We are the only one who can love us unconditionally. Yeah. The good, the bad, the ugly, whatever. We get to love it all.

Jeff Hudson: 48:20

Yep.

Ellecia: 48:21

And then that just makes us more lovable. Yes. It's also just real hot. Yes. That's amazing. That's so good. Um. If you had the chance to do something differently in your, uh, relationship journey, what would it be?

Jeff Hudson: 48:53

In the, in my whole life? Or just like what happened with the throuple

Ellecia: 48:59

whole life? Uh.

Jeff Hudson: 49:06

I don't know if my partner's home, but I think that, I think I would've had more sex with women. I think I miss out on having sex with women 'cause I like, I, yeah, I love straight porn and it's something that I fantasize about a lot and I. Cut it off so early in my life because I just thought I had to be gay and I was gay and I didn't really explore my sexuality with women. And I, I miss I, so that might, that chapter, that might be my next book.

Ellecia: 49:50

There you go. There you go. That's amazing. You know, we did, we grew up in a time where like, like we all know bi erasure is a thing, but we grew up in a time when it was like really a thing. Like you had to pick

Jeff Hudson: 50:00

Right, exactly. You one or the other. Like, I was

Ellecia: 50:03

in high school knowing I was bi and then I was like, well, I'm straight now. I'm in, I'm, I'm in love with a man. Yeah.

Jeff Hudson: 50:08

And I all, yes, I'm straight. And I also chose, 'cause you know, I came out, uh, in 1995, and again, it was before prep. HIV was very prevalent, so I also felt that like it wasn't right for me to sort of cross that bridge.'cause I was always afraid of like, what if I got HIV and then I got the woman sick, or whatever the case may be, you know? So I was just like, I'm gonna go this way. This is the lifestyle I'm choosing and that's what I'm gonna do. And now. It's, it's a different ball game, you know? Prep is here. I've been on prep for many years now. It has changed my life. Like, I mean so much. I love not having to use condoms anymore. It's like,

Ellecia: 50:58

I can't imagine that because I'm still fertile.

Jeff Hudson: 51:04

Three kids. How old are your kids? I

Ellecia: 51:05

don't want those. I have three teenagers.

Jeff Hudson: 51:09

Oh geez. Really? You like practically a teenager yourself.

Ellecia: 51:15

Thank you.

Jeff Hudson: 51:17

You have really good skin.

Ellecia: 51:18

Yeah. Thank you. I'm moisturized.

Jeff Hudson: 51:22

Yeah, you dip. Do you, do you do the mommy dearest thing where you dip your head in the bowl of ice water? Do you ever see mommy dearest? Oh God,

Ellecia: 51:29

no. That's too much work. I, I am really lazy. With my, with my skin. I, you know, pump, pump, I am too good to go. And

Jeff Hudson: 51:38

I may be better 'cause the desert just dries you out. And I don't, I don't put anything on, but I sure, like, I gotta

Ellecia: 51:46

wear that sunscreen.

Jeff Hudson: 51:50

I'm gonna get wrinkled, real wrinkled like Robert Redford did. So I'm, I'm all good. I'm never, I'm never gonna put anything in my face. I'm never doing fillers, none of that. Starts with guys, with guys, it starts to look weird. There's a lot of guys out here that put all this stuff in their face and there's, you know, it's like they go, yeah, hey, liberal culture

Ellecia: 52:14

shit. That's amazing. Um, where can people find your book?

Jeff Hudson: 52:20

Uh, you go, all you gotta do is Google it. It's pretty much everywhere. It's on Amazon, it's on Barnes and no, uh, Barnes and Noble. Uh, deconstructing us. My trouble with the throuple, uh, you could also go to my, there there is, you could also go to my Instagram, uh, j hud Golden on Instagram, and there's a link there, but if you Google it, it's, there's like 15 different avenues, whether it's print or ebook that you could, you could find it.

Ellecia: 52:49

Amazing. Yeah. I, like I said, I'm really enjoying it. Um, I, when are you gonna record an audio book?

Jeff Hudson: 52:56

Everyone keeps asking me this. I hate listening to my voice. My

Ellecia: 53:00

problem is this, right? Like sitting down and reading. I get it.

Jeff Hudson: 53:03

I get it. I hate listening to my voice. Um, if I listen back to this, I'll probably turn it off after like a minute'cause I just, I hate hearing my voice. So chances are I'm not gonna record an audio book on this one. Um, but my next book, which is fiction, uh. I probably will, but I'll probably hire something to do it. I'm, I'm just, you know, I have a, I have a weird, like, I don't know, I had, like, I had a speech impediment when I was a kid and my, I was sent to speech class and I did the Ws wrong with the RS and all that kind of stuff. And I still have issues with like, maring my words and so I, I'm very self-conscious about it. I definitely don't want anyone to have to listen to a whole. A whole book.

Ellecia: 53:57

No, you have a great voice. Oh, it would be lovely.

Jeff Hudson: 53:59

I appreciate you. Thank you.

Ellecia: 54:03

Um, I'm gonna put all the stuff in the show notes so that, so that people can find you. Um, okay. I have one more question for you. Yes. And this one does not go on the main episode. It's for my Patreon supporters@patreon.com /notmonogamous. And this segment's called just the Tip.

Jeff Hudson: 54:18

Okay.

Ellecia: 54:20

What is your give? Give us a, a favorite or best sex tip.

Jeff Hudson: 54:35

Hey, it was so great meeting you. Thanks

Ellecia: 54:36

notes.

Jeff Hudson: 54:37

Thank you for having me. I so appreciate you. Uh, thank you.

Ellecia: 54:41

All right. That was Jeff Hudson's just the tip. If you missed it. You can get all the juicy stuff at patreon.com/not monogamous. And in the meantime, if you enjoyed the episode, hit all the buttons, right? Like, like it, review it, say subscribe, follow whatever. Wherever you're watching this or wherever you're listening to this, hit all the good buttons, but ignore the bad buttons. Thanks.