Rethinking “Success” in Polyamory with Jessica Morgenthaler Ep. 134

Ever been told that a relationship only “counts” if you stay in it forever?

Yeah… hard pass.

In this episode of Nope! We’re Not Monogamous, I sit down with therapist, coach, and relationship anarchist Jessica Morgenthaler to talk about what it actually means to do relationships on purpose, not just by default.

Jessica’s been practicing and teaching ethical non-monogamy for over a decade, and the way she talks about relationship design will blow your mind a little (and soothe your inner overthinker a lot).

We dig into:

→ What it means to be a solo polyamorous relationship anarchist with a nesting partner (and how to deconstruct couple’s privilege without losing connection)

→ Why assumptions, not agreements, are usually what trip us up

→ How a “relationship user manual” can transform communication, accountability, and self-awareness

→ And why success in love isn’t about forever, it’s about authenticity, gratitude, and the courage to keep showing up

→ We also talk about aging, community care, and how to stop outsourcing all your emotional needs to one person (spoiler: your friends deserve a spot on your living will).

This conversation is funny, honest, and deeply human, the kind that leaves you breathing a little deeper and feeling less alone in how messy and beautiful relationships can be.

Connect with Jessica Morgenthaler, LICSWA, CCTP-I → ICU Transformative Consulting LLC www.icutransform.org

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey friends, welcome back to Nope, we're not monogamous. I'm Alicia Payne, your non-monogamy coach, and today's episode is such a good one. I recorded it on Halloween with my little cat ears on, and I was joined by Jessica Morgenthaler, who helps people do relationships differently on purpose. So Jessica's a therapist and a coach and an educator who's been living and teaching ethical non-monogamy for over a decade, kinda like myself, and we met at this year's uh Sex Positive Portland's Polytopia Conference, which was so freaking much fun. We were both presenters there, and I knew immediately that she was someone I wanted to bring onto the show. In today's conversation, we talk about what it means to live as a relationship anarchist, especially when you have a nesting partner, and then how to challenge the assumptions about what success in relationships really means. Jessica's also sharing what it's like to navigate hierarchy, community, self-awareness, and all the sneaky little traces of monogamous conditioning that love to follow us into polyamory. Plus, we get into the magic of user manuals, the myth of the perfect partnership, and why community care is just as vital as romantic love. So grab your tea or your pumpkin spice latte or whatever helps your nervous system feel cozy, and let's get into it. Enjoy. Welcome to Nope, we're not monogamous. Uh, and happy Halloween. I've got my little cat ears on. I love it. Thank you. I'm so happy that you're here. This is gonna be fun. Thanks for having me. Of course. Of course. Um, okay, here's how I want to start. Because it's nope, we're not monogamous. Uh, I am interested in learning more about what, or learning anything, actually, about what uh non-monogamy means for you. Like uh, what does it look like for you? What kind of relationship style do you have? Like, what do you got going on?

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Oh gosh, thanks for asking. You know, it's ever changing um as we do based off of who comes in in and out of our lives. So uh I discovered polyamory gosh 10 plus years ago, started from a monogamous marriage, opened it up, transitioned a number of different ways. Um, the latest transition is moving. Um I was considered solo poly, and then I took on a nesting partner. And now I'm trying to kind of advocate what it looks like to be remaining somewhat solo polyam relationship anarchist and have a nesting partner and really trying to change the paradigm on what it means to have prioritization, um, you know, and not couples privilege. And uh so it's been really interesting navigating the assumptions, even in the polyamory community, of what it means to have a nesting partner, uh, even though my nesting partner and I have really been very clear and explicit and thoughtful on how to navigate forward and remain accessible to our other partners. So um, even though I'm relationship anarchist, which is kind of a new thing for me to try on, uh I'm still very community-based. Um but just the way that I flow through and and design my relationships is more on the anarchy side. So that's a little bit about where I'm at in this moment of polyamory.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Amazing. Amazing. I love that. I imagine uh, you know, there's so much we all have like so much conditioning around uh relationships, especially with a nesting partner, right? Like, oh, where's your partner? Like just kind of this assumption that they that you are now a unit that that is it's really it's hard to pull it apart. And it's really cool that you are starting that way. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Very different than when I started this journey.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yeah, yeah, I bet. I bet. What um I'm curious what the what what is like the most like what's the hardest part of that? Um trying to like being a relationship anarchist, solo poly, nested, and and all of that. What what is the biggest challenge there? The assumptions, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Um you know, uh deprogramming monogamy thinking on needing to check in with each other at every you know, little move in terms of my nesting partner and I. Um, and the hesitation for other partners to ask for anything, honestly. Um you know, I even tried like sharing my updated user manual, which included a bunch of the agreements that my nesting partner and I had made around accessibility to staying overnight. And even though we have a shared bedroom, we you know ensure that other partners can still stay. And so, you know, we have a um a home office that we can pull out, you know, a cot into or whatever for the person who is not having a visitor, so to speak, um, you know, and making a lot of arrangements to maintain accessibility to intimacy in the home. And um and that is making other partners uncomfortable, uh, and in a way that I hadn't predicted because I was trying to be so transparent about you know the non-hierarchical emphasis that is so important to me. Um, very egalitarian, very, you know, talking about things from a negotiation perspective, saying, here's our agreements, do you have any, you know, issues with it? Is any of it unethical? What can we do? You know, just trying to be really transparent through the whole thing. And the the ingrained um belief around couples privilege has been really interesting. I I mean, that's where I'm guessing it's coming from. Um, you know, uh, is that we have, you know, we just as a society have to deconstruct what it means to be a pair, to be a dyad. Uh so um, and then, you know, with the nesting partner and I um again as an anarchist, I'm a little bit more like, do your thing, just let me know if I need to make dinner for myself or whatever. But there's still this, you know, um desire uh on their part to still check in and be like, hey, is this okay? And so we're kind of trying to navigate when do we actually check in and ask um more for um consideration than for permission. You know, is this gonna be disruptive to you? Like, may I? Um and so that's that's been an interesting conversation to continue to navigate.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yeah, I bet. I bet. Yeah. Uh the first thought that came to mind for me is like if my partner was like, oh yeah, my nesting partner is gonna go sleep in the office, I would be like, oh my God, I don't want to displace them. I I don't wanna I don't wanna disrupt their life, like, oh no. Um and and a lot of the like it's so hard to know, to really know, like, are they actually okay with it? Right.

unknown 8:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

It takes a lot of trust.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. Try to just live talk walk my talk. Walk my talk. Right? Right? Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. I love that you have a um, I'm sorry, what did you call it? A user manual? Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Yeah. So I just um I don't remember where it came from. I think that there was a multi-amory, you know, at the SOD on it or something, and and the polyamory community here in Portland just kind of um took it up. And I took a class um from somebody in the community about it who uh is a theater major who does a lot of creative writing and um and kind of took some of their prompts and just built out this whole who am I? How do you know if we're aligned? Here's my values, here's the things that come up for me in conflict, here's what I need to feel care, here's how I show care. Like, I mean, it's like nine pages, you know, you really have to be invested in wanting to be in relationship with me to read it, but um, you know, and and part of it's for my ADHD. Have I talked about all the things I want to talk about with you? Have I, you know? Um, how do we determine compatibility? Um, and then yeah, it just is a shared document. So every time I make an update, they all get an email going, oh God, what'd you change now? And they all have commenting rights, right? So they can be like, actually, that is not true for me. That is not how you show up in this relationship. Um, so you know, it's it's very much a living document.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

That's amazing. How uh how do people receive that? Like, like if if if you're like first of all, how soon do you give that to someone?

SPEAKER_02 12:13

I recreated, I revamped it. Um, and all my partners at the time of revamping and sending it out um for the first time for that particular set of partners uh had been about nine months, I think was the shortest um relationship, and then um three years and then on and off for eight years. So, you know, they all kind of knew me pretty well anyway. But what I was finding was that um I think in part because of having multiple partners, I'm like, who did I tell what to? Right? Or I was having difficulty kind of explaining why maybe something felt different to one partner from another. And and I just went, you know what? I'm just gonna write it all down and send it, and then they can tell me what their experience is. Um, and I found that uh I didn't really get a lot of uh feedback right away, you know. I mean, maybe some spelling corrections or something. Um but I think it's for me my own accountability process more than anything. And um, and it's long, and I get that it's long and people are busy. Um, so my hope is that it's just always there and that people that it is shared with can use it when it makes sense for them to be like, you know what, what am I missing? Or um I want to do something special. What can I do without you know actually having to ask Jessica what what this is meaningful to her? So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

I love that. I love that so much. It's it's really great. I think it takes a level of self-awareness that a lot of people don't have, especially in relationships, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

I'm trying to build out a template to give to my clients that they can even pick and choose, you know, what is your conversation style? What is your um emotional processing style? Like, you know, helping them find some awareness around how they move through the world and how they process everything. Um and uh because I talked to clients so much about this already, but I never had like a template to have them have some visual prompts to work with. Um, and so I'm hoping to release that by the beginning of the year to say, like, here, get to know yourself a little bit and then share what feels relevant, you know, because we do piecemeal how we share about ourselves to people. And so um, you know, it may become a five session, you know, kind of class of sorts as we deep dive into the different parts of ourselves and how we show up and how do we process trauma and what are our values that help us decide, you know, what our agreements are gonna be.

unknown 15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah, absolutely. I know it it's really fascinating to me how um like when we're in relationship with people, the reflections we get from different partners. Um, I had a partner point out to me recently, I didn't know this about myself, but he was like, You don't have a problem making decisions. You have a problem making decisions when you don't like the choices that are presented. He was like, So I know if you're like, I don't know, I don't care that like you just don't like the options that are there because when there's an option you like, you're like, hell yeah, let's do that. I was like, I didn't even know that about myself. That's like that could go in a thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I have found that um it's true for myself, but also in the the people that I work with, as they open up their marriage, right, for the first time, there's such a gift in actually having multiple partners be a mirror to you. And I know in my own personal journey, um, if and I want to be very clear, like my ex-husband and I are on good terms, we're good co-parents, we divorced very amicably. Um, no lawyers needed, right? Like it went really, really beautifully and smooth. Um, but in the height of our distress with each other, uh the worst was coming out because, you know, we're in, you know, chronic stress for years and years and years and losing patience, not having the right words. Um, and there were ways that my ex-husband would portray me that I had to go take to my therapist and be like, is this true? Is this really me? And had to work through a lot of parts of who I thought I was because of the lens that he was mirroring for me on who I was. Um, and and his struggles around um, you know, owning his feelings and things like that kind of ended up gaslighting my intuition around things and all of these pieces that if I would have left that monogamous marriage as it was, I would have been distraught, felt like I was totally unworthy of love, that I was a manipulative, self-centered, who knows whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, right. But because of the success, and I lose I use success loosely because I also recognize that success is an oppressive um concept. But because I had healthy, loving relationships happening simultaneously, who were mirroring, oh, that's not my experience of you. Here's actually my experience of you. I left that marriage feeling more whole than I ever could have leaving it from monogamy. And it gave me the space and the graciousness to walk away from that marriage without a lot of resentment. And I mean, there was still anger, don't get me wrong. And there's a lot of grief for the change and the shift, um, you know, of having a dream kind of die of what you thought your life was gonna be like and who was gonna be in it. Um, but it it ended up being kind of the healthiest separation and de-escalation that was possible, but it would not have been possible without the mirror of the healthier relationships that were present.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That makes so much sense to me. I have often said that meeting my second husband was the the like the the tool kind of that allowed me to see who I was outside of my first marriage and not go back. Which now I can look back and be like, oh, that was a really abusive and terrible relationship. Uh, but at the time I was like, God, I must be the worst person ever. Right. And then I had someone else going, but you're not. Oh, right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

And that's the other beautiful thing that polyamory does, right? Is is wow, words. I just feel so passionate about like they all just want to spill out. Uh, in my journey, at least, I think that this is true for a lot of polyamorous people, is you start to learn to develop relationships according to you and that person, not according to societal's norms, right? And so it's not just our other partners, but it's the friends and the community that we end up building to that contribute to our self-awareness and the mirrors that we get to be reflected in in their eyes. Um but we but when we don't do community building with other polyamorous people, we still stay in that same silo of you're doing it wrong, right? And so, you know, other partners for sure, but it's, you know, immensely important to create community uh within the the open ethical non monogamy realm because we need to be mirrored back our values, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Community pieces is so, so, so important. I talk about it a lot and I have a lot of people comment like on social media, like, I how do I, I mean, we're in the Pacific Northwest, so we're I think very, very privileged in that way. Uh in there being lots of non-monogamous folks and communities and and and resources. Um but I always have people commenting, like, I don't know anybody. I d how? And I'm just like, oh go, go, go find, go find a meetup, go find some like here, go look for these things. You need to meet people who are also non-monogamous so that you don't feel alone and like you're the only weirdo out there. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Yeah, yeah. Even online community is better than no community.

unknown 22:02

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Uh-huh. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I completely agree. Uh yeah. Um you mentioned success earlier. And uh one of the things I wanted to ask you was in your experience uh in your work and in your own relationships, what would you say makes a non-monogamous or polyamorous relationship successful?

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Um, I love this question. And I will talk to the oppressiveness of success as a social worker, right? Success is meant to have us try to achieve somebody else's goals. Just inherently, right? Um, and and the opposite of that is failure, right? Because in order to manipulate us into doing the work, they, you know, we have to have some sense of value tied to it. So I just like to name that there is no such thing as success or failure, right? There is, you know, our our best attempt, our effort. Um, you know, my kids' wrestling coach said it's not about the outcome, it's about the effort, right? How much effort did we put into it? And were we authentic doing it? Right. Um, yes. Right. So for me, you know, uh the way that I look at it, and I think, you know, some of it is the you know, Buddhist philosophy too of impermanence, right? And this idea that the people that are in our life are in our Life for a reason. And um so it really is what is the ebb and flow of that relationship? What is um what is making sense for that that lifetime snap where it is, right? And we're all learning and growing, and people will learn and grow with us. Um, and some people will learn and grow and then uh deviate from our journey. And so um I really just try to have a lot of gratitude for who's here now and why are we together now? And um, and when the time to when the time to renegotiate commitment comes up, can we do so with gratitude and love and appreciation? And when we can do that rather with than with pain and resentment, that is what feels quote unquote successful to me.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. That's so good. So good. Especially the the success and failure, because I feel like there's just we really have this big idea that like relationships are only successful if you die in them. That's not the trophy I want. Um and otherwise it was a failure or a waste of time, or uh it didn't, you know, you know what I mean? Like I I just what if we can like be grateful and appreciative for the the things we got to experience, the growth we got to have, the connection we got to have. That's amazing. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Yeah, yeah. And I know that it's scary. You know, I hear all the time clients um and friends in the community saying, you know, but we're aging. I don't want to be alone. Right. And that's totally fair. And why does it have to be a romantic partner or a sexual partner? Why can't it be our friends? Why are we not putting our friends on our living wills? Why are we not, you know, um, you know, putting cousins on, you know, our emergency contact list? Or I mean, why does it have to be a romantic partner that bears that weight? Um, and again, so I think community kind of comes back to being key. And I know it's a paradigm shift. I know it's super challenging. And I would be lying if I said that I don't worry about the same thing. Um yeah. And I think that we worry more than we need to.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

I completely agree. I completely agree, especially when you consider like if that is your reason for be staying in a relationship, like maintaining a relationship, that you if that weren't a concern, you maybe wouldn't be in it. Like choosing to stay in it does not guarantee that they will be there with you. Like they might die before you, and then you're still alone. Right. Exactly. Reality. Sorry. Amazing, amazing. I actually I have a question for you because you also work with um with non-monogamous clients. I had someone ask me today, and I haven't had time to get back to her, but she's asking, uh she's at the end, like at that point where NRE is new relationship energy is fading off and and the little annoying things are starting to show up. She's like, I I I notice now I'm I'm I'm seeing the humanity in my partner and the things that previously didn't irritate me that maybe irritate me a little bit now. How do I how do I talk about those things? Do I talk about the big one, only the big ones, the little ones? Right. She was like, how do I navigate this part? Right. Thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Yeah. So um here's the thing I tell my clients. Look at why it's annoying. Right? Look at look at why you're internally activated by it. If it's an insecurity of your own, go work on it with your therapist, right? Or your coach or whoever you're you you're using. If it's um harm, if you feel like you're receiving harm from it, then you take it to them and say in a very loving way, like, hey, I'd really like to talk to you about this thing that's not feeling very good to me. Right. And then if it's a pattern of behavior, it's both people's responsibility to change what's going on. Um so that's you know, that's kind of how I look at like, is it worth bringing up? And whose responsibility is it to try to make a difference in that interaction, that behavior, that tone, whatever it is. And it's okay to say, you know, like, hey, I'm noticing that when this thing comes up, my body becomes activated and I'm recognizing that it's a trauma response. I just want you to be aware of it because obviously in my trauma response, I may not be as calm, collected, whatever, right? Um, so I just need you to know where it's coming from. But you may not have a specific request tied to it if you know that it's yours, right? So, you know, transparency in that way is still beneficial. Um, but knowing whether it's a request or a share, I think that's where that's how I delineate, you know, how to approach it.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

I love that. I love that. The um yeah, that I love that. I was in my mind, I was thinking, I still haven't responded to her, but I was thinking, like, okay, is it is it does it impact you? Is it a thing that actually affects you, or is it a thing about their personality? Right? Is that like who they are that's annoying you, or is it a thing that they're doing that's annoying you? Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

And and it's really important for people to distinguish a behavior from a person, right? You know, all too often we're like, well, they're just mean. Well, are they mean or is their tone harsh? Right. Um, and the more that we can remove something as a behavior, helps stave off resentment for longer, right? Yeah. Um, so I really love that that lens. Yeah. And if it's a person, if it's a personality trait, it's an incompatibility potential, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Like, do you want this person to change? Are you in love with who you who what their potential was, who you thought they could be, and you're seeing now who they really are. Or are these just like quirks? Like, is it the way they're folding the towels?

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Very different things. Yeah, right. Amazing. Amazing. Such a good idea. Yeah, I always find it uh yeah, I always find it fascinating how different people approach those because there's so many answers, right? Like there's there's so many ways to deal with relationship and people. Uh so I always I always like stuff like that. Uh um okay. I another question I have for you is what is something that anyone can do for free to help them approach relationships in a healthier way.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

The thing that comes to mind right now, uh and people have a love-hate relationship with it, is journal. You know, and it can be a written journal, it can be an audio journal, it can be, you know, more letter writing, um, it can be an outline or bullet points, right? Like we don't have to subscribe to some weird way that you know we've been taught to journal. Um, but you know, processing those emotions outside the body is super helpful for trying to distinguish what's really important, right? And sleep on it. Like, um, I think a lot of people don't sleep on it enough. I know you're not supposed to go to bed mad, but um I think that's the worst advice I ever got. I'm always mad when I'm but sometimes you know, we just really need to let it sit for a minute and see what settles. Um, but you know, trying to just intellectually think about something and never really getting it out of the body can perpetuate trauma, it can lead to resentment, it can keep things confusing, right? Um, and so whatever form of processing you can find comfort in, um, you know, I think getting it out of the body is really key to trying to get at the root of things. I completely agree.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Completely agree. That's my I always like journal it or voice memo it, go for a walk, move your body, get it outside of your brain, and then treat yourself like a toddler. Make sure you've slept and eaten and had water. Yep, exactly. Start there, then come back.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Right, right. Yeah, and I think you make a really good point, right? Is like make sure that you're taking care of yourself, make sure that you have had enough to uh to eat, right? People are often hangry. Um, make sure that you're you're getting a good night's sleep. Um, uh, you know, I remember seeing a TED talk once that was kind of mind-blowing, and uh, and the gentleman said, um, you know, sleep is the only time your brain gets cleansed because it actually um uh and I'm not a scientist, I didn't look this up right, but what I believe I remember him saying was like your the mass of your brain actually shrinks just enough to have the cerebral spinal fluid flush through it, and it's like giving your brain a shower, right? But if you're not sleeping, it can't do that. And you know, in our society with the stressors that we have, we just inherently don't get enough sleep anyway. Um, you know, but making sure that we're doing good self-care allows us to show up in relationships better. Um so I think that's a really good point that people take the time to do the self-care so that they can show up as their best selves or better selves, not maybe even best, but um, than somebody who's tired and hungry and chronically stressed without a moment of relief. Um, and joy really is, in my opinion, the antidote to mitigating the stress of navigating relationship in general, whether it's a friendship, a coworker, or multiple partners. Um, if we don't combat the stressor with joy, it will feel impossible.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Absolutely. I completely agree. Completely agree. Yeah, I always tell people to go masturbate about it. You can take pleasure in your life. Yes, all the pleasure, all the pleasure. Is there anything I haven't asked you that you want to share uh with the listeners?

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Oh gosh, where's my soapbox? Um I think the thing that I don't feel like gets talked enough about is you know one conflict, right? What is conflict? What does that mean? Um, and that disagreements are okay. Like we can find connection in conflict. Um, but even within that, you know, there's this idea that you know, we can't make a request. Or if we make a request, if we receive a request, I think it's actually more from this lens. If we receive a request, we have to either agree to that request or say no. And people forget about the negotiation process. And um, you know, I learned about negotiation from Sex Positive Portland, to be honest. Um, and they have a really good rule that somebody can receive a request, but the person receiving the request is the only one to initiate the negotiation, meaning that the person who's requesting doesn't get a no and then goes back into the conversation and says, but what about right? Once they receive the no, that's it. Right. Um, but within the negotiation process, um, the goal is to either reach the agreement, which in polyamory it's not a rule, right? We want to be very clear that an agreement is both people being hell yes, and we have no people pleasers in agreements, um, or it ends up being a no, right? Uh but people forget that they can offer something else, right? Yeah, and any decision that you make can have a time limit to it. It doesn't have to be forever. And people forget that part. And they think that once they agree to something, that it has to always be that way. And I'm like, no, create a check-in, you know. Is it are we gonna give it a week? Are we gonna give it a month, six months? I mean, depending on where people are at. Um and then the final piece about that that feels really important, and I learned this from SexPowser Portland also, but um, I really try to hone this in for people. No is not rejection. Again, as a social worker, I'm like all about systems of oppression. And to think that no is a rejection, rejection means that you're, you know, it's bad to not give in to somebody else's desire for you, right? Rejection is meant to for complacency, it's meant to like be manipulative, you know, you have to do that, or I'm going to take away my acceptance of you, right? Is kind of where rejection came from. And no is not rejection, no is simply that person taking care of themselves. And so, as the person receiving the no, if you can view that as that person is taking care of themselves, and it is actually not personal, you don't have to personalize the no, it could have nothing to do with you. Um, that helps to create this defensiveness that we tend to experience out of the fear of rejection and makes asking a little bit more accessible because the no is not scary. And as the as the you know, a reforming people pleaser right to say no is to empower yourself to take care of yourself. It is not an actual like value that you're placing on somebody else. Um so that just feels really important, I think, in how we navigate conversation about asking for what we want.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Yeah, yeah. I love that so much. That's fantastic. Especially while you were talking, I was thinking of how back to like the beginning of our conversation and how and the assumptions people make about dyads, about couples, about two people in relationship together. That is one of them, that our desires must be the same all the time. So the way we show love is by we'll just I'll just do everything that you want because I love you more than I love myself because I don't want to, I actually don't want to do the thing I just said yes to. Right. But actually, if we're like saying no to things we want to say no to or offering negotiation, like we're giving our partner a chance to love us even more, to like respect us and honor us. Yeah. Yeah. And and be separate humans.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Right. Right. Absolutely. And that's, you know, and that's kind of one of the tropey things about polyamory is like, oh, you know, one person can't meet all of our needs, and right, which is true. And we kind of get stuck sometimes when we think that um it's scary to ask for what we want. And when that person says no, that we can no longer ask for it from anybody else. Right.

unknown 42:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

So that's the beauty of it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Well, I guess I'll just never have what I want in my own life. Right. Again, we're like very dramatic toddlers inside. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, it's so good. So good. Oh, this has been um so good. This is fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on. Uh, if people want to find you and your work, how can they do that?

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Oh, great question. Um, I am a therapist at real life counseling uh in Washington. And um I do coaching and workshops um and conferences through ICU transformative uh consulting. So email me at jessica at icu. Just the letters icu transform.org.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Amazing. Amazing. I'll put that in the in the show notes too. Yeah. I I should have said in the beginning, um, so that people know, like we met at um Sex Positive Portland's Polytopia because we were both speakers there. That was so fun.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

That's right. Yeah, it was so lovely to finally get to meet you in person and um hear one of your talks. And we had a great time.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

That was a yeah, that was a really good weekend. Uh oh, one more question. One more question for you. And this one doesn't go on the main episode. This is for supporters of the show on our Patreon at patreon.com slash not monogamous. And the segment is just the tip. And it's what is a um a favorite or a best a favorite or best sex tip that you would give to people. No pressure.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

No pressure.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Well, what if I like pressure? Um you're right. And there it is.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

Amazing. Thank you so much. Oh, my pleasure. It was such a joy to talk to you today. And I really love all the work that you're doing, and I really do want to connect more. I really appreciate you know the offer to be on your podcast. And I also just, you know, want to be in community with you. So um, you know, I know much of the business is about, you know, pushing ourselves out there so that we can make this be a living as well as a passion. Um, and I just really Enjoy you and the fact that we are fairly close and you have a business down here, and I go up there all the time because I have a partner up there. Like I really just want you to know that this was not receiving the offer to be on your podcast was a blessing, a very unexpected blessing. And I have a lot of gratitude for it as I, you know, am trying to expand my business reach um and my support reach. Um, and it is not, uh, I just want to be very explicit, it is not the reason I reached out to you at all. Um, it was purely just to be a community and to get to know you and to be another um support for each other. So just as as healers, as people doing this work.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

So thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. That was so good. I loved how Jessica broke down the difference between checking in for consideration versus asking for permission. And the piece about defining success by authenticity instead of longevity, that that resonated so much for me. So if you want to learn more about Jessica's work or check her out like her upcoming offerings, you can find her at ICU Transformative Consulting. I just got that, ICU. Uh, I'll link it in the show notes. You can click wherever that is. Seriously, go follow her. She's one of the people she is one of the people who's walking her talk with so much grace and so much clarity. And also, if you love what we're doing here, at Nope, we're not monogamous, and you want to help keep it going, then you can join our Patreon for as little as$3 a month at patreon.com/slash not monogamous. You'll get access to bonus content like our just the tips segment, including Jessica's spicy one from this episode. You'll get behind-the-scenes QAs, early invites to live hangouts. Right now I'm sending out stickers. You can also get a mug. There's all sorts of good things. Um, plus, it's just one of the easiest ways to help me keep creating this this like honest, nuanced, nervous system-friendly conversations about love that doesn't fit in the box, right? Uh so again, patreon.com slash not monogamous. Uh, the link's also in the show notes. I'm so grateful you're here, truly. You know, otherwise, go like things, subscribe, leave a review, tell people how much you love it, share this episode with someone else. I love you. Bye.